View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #411
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    By leaving your weapon in your vehicle you have assumed a certain amount of risk as a trade off for permission to enter the property. You still have the choice to not to enter the property if you feel inclined. And a sign stating that you are entering the property at your own risk would deny your claim of liability as long as the sign or even a verbal warning was issued that crossed all the T's and doted all of the legal I's. Any law that gave gun owners special liability privileges over non gun owners would be obviously exploited.


    Again the point is that you are not required to enter someone elses property even if that establishment is the only one of its type around. If you do not feel safe going somewhere without a gun then for your own safety do not go to such places.

    If we were talking about something relatively minor, I'd agree with you.

    I think the fact that we're talking about an ENUMERATED Constitutional right, and something that can potentially be a matter of life and death, elevates this to a whole different category.


    Or should, at least.

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  2. #412
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    If we were talking about something relatively minor, I'd agree with you.

    I think the fact that we're talking about an ENUMERATED Constitutional right, and something that can potentially be a matter of life and death, elevates this to a whole different category.


    Or should, at least.
    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

    Again you must make the decision to enter and be on private property. In making the decision to enter privately owned property you are consciously making an agreement to respect the ENUMERATED Constitutional right's of the property owner. Of course there are limitations on ENUMERATED Constitutional right's in that your rights may not take away someone elses rights. The property that you wish to go on is stationary but you are not, so it would be logical that you are trying to impose on the rights of the property owner not the other way around.

  3. #413
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    And what about the 4th, 5th or 7th and 8th amendments? Can those rights be removed when you enter my store as well? People can certainly choose not to become criminals?
    Reread the bill of rights. Stores cannot make policies that violate any of the rights contained within it. It's impossible.

    There is a reason for this.

    That reason is why no individual in the country can possibly do anything at all to violate your 2nd amendment rights. Even if someone prevented you from bearing arms under certain circumstances, they could not possibly violate your 2nd amendment rights.

    I believe no shirt, no shoes, no service is directly related to the health department.
    Even in places that don't serve food? Fascinating.
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  4. #414
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    And what about the 4th, 5th or 7th and 8th amendments? Can those rights be removed when you enter my store as well? People can certainly choose not to become criminals?

    I believe no shirt, no shoes, no service is directly related to the health department.

    A business has the legal right to stop patrons form engaging in activity that the establishment was not designed for. This means that what you wear can get you restricted from entering a business. In a theater loud talking can get your thrown out despite the Constructional right to free speech. Even in the most gun rights friendly establishment you will not be able to walk around with a gun in your hand. No mater how much you want to you may not go in the ladies room if you are male. Ypu cannot just walk into a Christian church and start preaching about allah, and if you did you would soon find yourself outside.

    You simply cannot do whatever you please on someone elses property.

  5. #415
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Reread the bill of rights. Stores cannot make policies that violate any of the rights contained within it. It's impossible.

    There is a reason for this.

    That reason is why no individual in the country can possibly do anything at all to violate your 2nd amendment rights. Even if someone prevented you from bearing arms under certain circumstances, they could not possibly violate your 2nd amendment rights.



    Even in places that don't serve food? Fascinating.
    The gun lobby has successfully fought off the infringement of the second amendment every time thus far. Sort of a lame argument to put forth since it simply pointing a finger at another argument but there you have it. Should someone get taken into custody at a movie theater for talking too loud, the charge would most likely be disturbing the peace or some other minor charge. You most certainly can walk around your local restaurant with a pistol in your hand and you can be arrested but nothing will stick. You can be arrested for anything, be charged with anything legally what matters is if those charges can or will lead to prosecution and survive the appeal process.

    Call or otherwise inquire with your local health department. Last I really looked at one, those signs all said by blah-blah of the department of health.
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    The gun lobby has successfully fought off the infringement of the second amendment every time thus far. Sort of a lame argument to put forth since it simply pointing a finger at another argument but there you have it. Should someone get taken into custody at a movie theater for talking too loud, the charge would most likely be disturbing the peace or some other minor charge. You most certainly can walk around your local restaurant with a pistol in your hand and you can be arrested but nothing will stick. You can be arrested for anything, be charged with anything legally what matters is if those charges can or will lead to prosecution and survive the appeal process.
    You can get charged with trespassing if the restaurant has a policy of no guns allowed and you refuse to leave when asked. That charge will stick.

    Stores do not make gun laws, ergo they cannot infringe upon your right to bear arms. Stores do not make laws, thus they cannot infringe upon any of your rights described by the bill of rights.

    Call or otherwise inquire with your local health department. Last I really looked at one, those signs all said by blah-blah of the department of health.
    why would the health department be dictating policy in stores that are not under the purview of the health department.
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You can get charged with trespassing if the restaurant has a policy of no guns allowed and you refuse to leave when asked. That charge will stick.

    Stores do not make gun laws, ergo they cannot infringe upon your right to bear arms. Stores do not make laws, thus they cannot infringe upon any of your rights described by the bill of rights.



    why would the health department be dictating policy in stores that are not under the purview of the health department.

    Yep, if a business asks you to leave and you don't go they can charge you for trespassing. But if a business asks you to leave and you DO go, you can sue them if your rights are being infringed upon.

    Company policy means exactly squat when you come up against a law, much more so an amendment.

    A business resides in a state (or territory) and will fall under that jurisdiction. That jurisdiction will obey the Constitution.

    Back to the Health Department. I'm fairly certain the Shirts / Shoes 'thing' is due to the germ breeding ground that is our armpits and foot fungus. I do know that 'thing' is not optional and a business will be fined for not complying with the 'Law, ordinance, regulation' or what have you that applies.

    A very similar discussion to the 2nd amendment one would be a 1st amendment discussion concerning pornography. It's regulated and controlled but very protected.
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  8. #418
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    Yep, if a business asks you to leave and you don't go they can charge you for trespassing. But if a business asks you to leave and you DO go, you can sue them if your rights are being infringed upon.

    Company policy means exactly squat when you come up against a law, much more so an amendment.

    A business resides in a state (or territory) and will fall under that jurisdiction. That jurisdiction will obey the Constitution.

    Back to the Health Department. I'm fairly certain the Shirts / Shoes 'thing' is due to the germ breeding ground that is our armpits and foot fungus. I do know that 'thing' is not optional and a business will be fined for not complying with the 'Law, ordinance, regulation' or what have you that applies.

    A very similar discussion to the 2nd amendment one would be a 1st amendment discussion concerning pornography. It's regulated and controlled but very protected.
    You can legally be thrown out of a business for wearing a t-shirt with pornography on it. Like wise if you show up in a restaurant that has a dress code wearing jeans out the door you go.

  9. #419
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    You can legally be thrown out of a business for wearing a t-shirt with pornography on it. Like wise if you show up in a restaurant that has a dress code wearing jeans out the door you go.
    Define thrown out. Do you mean physically manhandled?

    What would likely happen, if the business was trying to act in a lawful manner is they would ask me to leave and when I told them no, the cops would show up. They would make the determination regarding offensiveness of the shirt.

    Where it bounces from there, I don't know. If you are ejected and it is pornographic or if it is found not to be. I think it has to do with offensiveness but as I said I'm not sure. You certainly cannot be thrown out for wearing a shirt with a weapon depicted on it or a Glock logo. Pornography is somewhat different I'm pretty sure it boils down to offensiveness or 'community' guidelines.

    Being refused admittance and being 'thrown out' are two different issues.
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  10. #420
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    Define thrown out. Do you mean physically manhandled?

    What would likely happen, if the business was trying to act in a lawful manner is they would ask me to leave and when I told them no, the cops would show up. They would make the determination regarding offensiveness of the shirt.

    Where it bounces from there, I don't know. If you are ejected and it is pornographic or if it is found not to be. I think it has to do with offensiveness but as I said I'm not sure. You certainly cannot be thrown out for wearing a shirt with a weapon depicted on it or a Glock logo. Pornography is somewhat different I'm pretty sure it boils down to offensiveness or 'community' guidelines.

    Being refused admittance and being 'thrown out' are two different issues.
    Why split hairs about the term thrown out? You could just look up the laws and then you would have known that its slang for legally removing the patron from the premises. There's an entire legal procedure for doing such things. Which as you mention ends with the cops showing up. Since what I am talking about are actual laws on the books then the cops would make you leave. And since the cops were needed you possibly just earned yourself a ban from the property and any future time that you show up and get caught you will be charged with trespassing.


    Again it is silly to concentrate on the term thrown out as if my argument involves illegal behavior.


    My point is that the person in control of the private property has the right to make the rules for that property as long as they follow all of the laws pertaining to their business. And what I said above is that you cannot expect to be allowed into a restaurant that only allows formal wear if you have jeans on. Clearly it is legal for the restaurant to refuse you service for violating the rules that they set for the type of business that they are engaging in.

    Disney World Prohibited Items and Dress Codes

    A store may legally prohibit the patrons from bringing items into the store. For example back packs are legally prohibited from many stores. Or more to the point like Disney World Weapons of any kind can be prohibited. Dont agree just dont go there dont try to force someone to comply with your wants.

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