View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #401
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You keep talking about the way things are as though I don't know. The way things are today is what my objections are based on, so restating the status quo doesn't advance the discussion.
    Restating the status quo what the hell are you going on about now? I directly responded in context to your tiny sentence about if a employer put their hands on you against your will. But if you are here to fantasize about Jerry's version of the world I think there can be no progress. Progress in these types of conversations usually involve mutual understandings there may be some give and take on issues, but if we cannot honestly talk about reality nothing really is progressing. I stated how things are where I live and that even in states with parking lot laws private property owners can still have gun free zones. The reason the Private property owners still retain the right to disallow guns on the property is because of the importance of private property in America.

    Private property is a fundamental right no less equal to the right to bear arms. The Constitution clearly makes it clear that our rights cannot disallow other peoples rights. And I have made it clear that private property rights are established for the land owners property before the gun owner voluntarily goes onto the land. For a gun owner to demand his right to bear arms while on private property he has to take away the established rights of the private property owner. Face it a gun is not a natural right. A gun is an object a weapon and nothing more. It is not like you would die by not having a gun in your possession. And the main factor is that no one is forcing you to go on someones private property, and I do mean no one. You are not required to enter private property at any time you can choose to not enter the property and leave at anytime. So if you go into a so called gun free zone you did so voluntarily. The choice is yours and has always been yours alone.

  2. #402
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Restating the status quo what the hell are you going on about now?
    Every instance where you've stated what the law is today and what employers can do today.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Constitution clearly makes it clear that our rights cannot disallow other peoples rights.
    Therefore you cannot logically disallow the 2A while the gun is on an employee's or customer's person, without a need to do so.

  3. #403
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Every instance where you've stated what the law is today and what employers can do today.


    Therefore you cannot logically disallow the 2A while the gun is on an employee's or customer's person, without a need to do so.
    Let me put it in simply terms for you.

    "Thank you for your concern but I have the security of my property under control please remove your weapon from my property now or I must have you arrested for breaking security protocol. If you refuse to do what I demand of you I will be within the rights of the Constitution to protect my land. "


    3475. Right to Eject Trespasser From Real Property
    The (owner/lawful occupant) of a (home/property) may request that a trespasser leave the (home/property). If the trespasser does not leave within a reasonable time and it would appear to a reasonable person that the trespasser poses a threat to (the (home/property)/ [or] the (owner/ [or] occupants), the (owner/ lawful occupant) may use reasonable force to make the trespasser leave.
    Justia :: Criminal Law 3476. Right to Defend Real or Personal Property


    It can be considered reasonable that if you refuse to leave my property (when asked nicely) and have a deadly weapon in your possession that you are a threat. See the question is why do you want to stay on private property that you have no claim to, when the owner clearly does not want you there? Just because you are carrying a gun does not make you a special person. Again a gun is an object that is not important to your survival as a human being. Yes a gun can be quite handing in self defense or even to shoot. But it is neither part of your race or any of the normal attributes covered by the anti-discrimination laws. And it would just be stupid to add gun owners as a protected class since we all are gun owners we are not the minority we are the majority. Besides you would get other groups that would want the same protections under law. It would instantly cascade into ridiculousness. Next you know Ipod owners would want protections as well.


    Here is an interesting read that dives into your idea that private property rights cannot infringe on your right to bear arms. Property Rights: The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics | Library of Economics and Liberty

    One of the most fundamental requirements of a capitalist economic system—and one of the most misunderstood concepts—is a strong system of property rights. For decades social critics in the United States and throughout the Western world have complained that “property” rights too often take precedence over “human” rights, with the result that people are treated unequally and have unequal opportunities. Inequality exists in any society. But the purported conflict between property rights and human rights is a mirage. Property rights are human rights.

    All private property owners have the right to delegate the rent of their property. In many cases the owner will negate rent and just allow a person on their property out of goodwill or sound business choice. Since the modernization of calling portions of private properties now public spaces property owners have lost some of their rights. The NRA is exploiting this hedging of freedom by insisting that the 2nd Amendment extends to private property because of the new definitions of private property. If we were still using the original definitions of public space the NRA would have no legal grounds to insist the right to carry a firearm on private property. Clearly this means that the NRA supports this relativity new definition of public space.

    Now also clearly the intentions of the framers were to give private property owners freedom and liberties. The problem is that gun owners used to have more rights to carry their weapons about. But overtime laws have hedged that freedom in the same way that laws have hedged the private properties owners rights.

    My point all along has been that further hedging private property owners rights will not make things better for Americans. I even pointed out al;l of this for you before but you keep ignoring it and fall back into "I have gun want to go anywhere". Even after I pointed out that you cannot go anywhere with a gun nor could you ever go anywhere you wanted with a gun. Culturally no one shows up in church packing a side arm. That would be disrespectful and aside from a few modern churches most people attending the church would be highly offend to take any weapon into gods home. And no one in their right mind would even think that it would be ok to swing by the White House with a gun. The same respect goes for some ones private property. I do not know where you grew up at but I remember as a kid there were two things that you did not do: Go into another mans house with a loaded gun or enter any house with a hat on. Laws are but a reflection of society. We do not go running around having sex in public because most of society frowns on such behavior. Constitutionally speaking what in the Constitution makes it illegal to be naked in public? There is nothing really in the Constitution about nakedness. But you will not anytime soon or in the near distant future be able to walk around naked anywhere you want to. Even if we enact laws that allow more places to be naked there will still be places off limits to nakedness. Its the same exact concept with guns except of course there is the 2nd Amendment but the question has already been ruled on about where guns can be allowed. So the NRA wishes to create more and more laws to hedge our freedoms through laws that pave the way for other unrelated laws. If you allow one group you must allow them all it will be the end of us if we let it go too long....

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    All interesting points. Does that mean you can walk up to a customer and say,

    "Hi, your a "Green" colored man, I object to you being in my store. Please leave?"
    "Hi, your a "Green" colored lady, we have special drinking fountains for your kind. It's outside the store and three blocks down."
    "Hi, "Green" people cannot park in my parking lot or use my bathrooms."
    "Handicapped? Get Lost. Female, get lost."

    I suspect your going to argue that civil rights trump property rights but the 2nd amendment somehow does not.

    Your well spoken and I sincerely await your answer.

    Thanks
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  5. #405
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    BTW, this just goes to show that Capitalism isn't actually about "freedom," it just shifts the power to the Capitalist rather than a democratic process.

  6. #406
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    All interesting points. Does that mean you can walk up to a customer and say,

    "Hi, your a "Green" colored man, I object to you being in my store. Please leave?"
    "Hi, your a "Green" colored lady, we have special drinking fountains for your kind. It's outside the store and three blocks down."
    "Hi, "Green" people cannot park in my parking lot or use my bathrooms."
    "Handicapped? Get Lost. Female, get lost."

    I suspect your going to argue that civil rights trump property rights but the 2nd amendment somehow does not.

    Your well spoken and I sincerely await your answer.

    Thanks
    Everyone has the right to own a firearm equally in the US. Gun owners are not a specific race. Owning a gun is not a disability. No one was born with a gun so in reality gun ownership is optional.

    Specifically I have no argument against carrying a legal gun in a public space. Semi-public places on the other hand should retain the discretionary rights of the landowner to decide what is best for security of the property along as those measures are legal. The 2nd Amendment specifically covers the right to bear arms in public spaces. Historically public spaces were all in areas that were not on private property. And remained that way for a great deal of American history. But times have changed and now some private property legally is defined as public space.

    On semi-public and private property the owner of said property isnt telling a person that they cannot enter their property based on race, religion etc. but rather that an physical object a gun cannot enter the property. There is no real act of discrimination since anyone can own a gun race, religion etc. has no bearings on who can own a gun. Gun owners are not a specific class of people other than there are age limits to carrying a handgun and no convicted felons can carry or own a firearm.

    BTW I do not agree that felons should be banned for life from their right to bear arms. A felony is really just a crime that involved a sentence of one year or more. You can get probation and never serve any prison time and lose your right to bear arms. And why can you lose the right to bear arms in the first place? All what a corrupt government would need to do is accuse everyone of committing a felony crime to disarm us. I think the concerns of the 2nd Amendment were centered on the Governments ability to disarm us not a properties owners ability to disarm visitors to their property. We can chose to not go onto private property. Therefor our disarmament of private property in voluntary. You simply have a choice to disarm or leave if the properties owner requests it.
    The key is that you can still go on the property just that your gun may not. A "green" colored person cannot change their color, a handicapped person cannot become unhandicapped, a person cannot change their sex (well the sex one is debatable but generally speaking...).

  7. #407
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    All interesting points. Does that mean you can walk up to a customer and say,

    "Hi, your a "Green" colored man, I object to you being in my store. Please leave?"
    "Hi, your a "Green" colored lady, we have special drinking fountains for your kind. It's outside the store and three blocks down."
    "Hi, "Green" people cannot park in my parking lot or use my bathrooms."
    "Handicapped? Get Lost. Female, get lost."
    It's actually more along the lines of "No Shirt, No Shoes, No service".

    Gun rights are not civil rights. People have a choice whether or not to carry a gun, they don't have a choice about skin color, gender or having a disability.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  8. #408
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    It's actually more along the lines of "No Shirt, No Shoes, No service".

    Gun rights are not civil rights. People have a choice whether or not to carry a gun, they don't have a choice about skin color, gender or having a disability.
    And what about the 4th, 5th or 7th and 8th amendments? Can those rights be removed when you enter my store as well? People can certainly choose not to become criminals?

    I believe no shirt, no shoes, no service is directly related to the health department.
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  9. #409
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    As I've said before, I'm perfectly okay with a store owner telling me I can't carry into his place of business...


    ... as long as his denial of my right to self-defense means he is 100% liable for any harm I suffer due to crime while in his property, or going to or from between his front door and my car.

    If he disarms me, then he should provide for my safety while I'm there, and be liable for his failure to do so if I come to criminal harm.

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  10. #410
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    As I've said before, I'm perfectly okay with a store owner telling me I can't carry into his place of business...


    ... as long as his denial of my right to self-defense means he is 100% liable for any harm I suffer due to crime while in his property, or going to or from between his front door and my car.

    If he disarms me, then he should provide for my safety while I'm there, and be liable for his failure to do so if I come to criminal harm.
    By leaving your weapon in your vehicle you have assumed a certain amount of risk as a trade off for permission to enter the property. You still have the choice to not to enter the property if you feel inclined. And a sign stating that you are entering the property at your own risk would deny your claim of liability as long as the sign or even a verbal warning was issued that crossed all the T's and doted all of the legal I's. Any law that gave gun owners special liability privileges over non gun owners would be obviously exploited.


    Again the point is that you are not required to enter someone elses property even if that establishment is the only one of its type around. If you do not feel safe going somewhere without a gun then for your own safety do not go to such places.

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