View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

Voters
79. You may not vote on this poll
  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
Page 4 of 54 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 538

Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #31
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yay for expansion of government power, regulation, and encroachment into the private sector!
    Just like the expansion of government power forbidding employers to discriminate based on sex, religion, nationality, etc, etc. This is no different.

  2. #32
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Had either couple discovered my faith and ordered me to leave for that reason, I would have been entitled to compensation. Now since the 1st Amendment is just as specifically enumerated as the 2nd Amendment, I should therefore also be entitled to protected and compensation were I ordered to leave for carrying a pistol.
    Absolutely, but then that's interjecting a third issue into it in regards to contract rights. If they hire you for a job, make no statements regarding possible issues with a particular religion, you show up, they see your necklace and go "GET OUT"...they still hired you, you showed, they then chose to break the contract. That's on them. Same thing with a gun in that situation.

    However, if at the time they were hiring you they said "Look, we are a Pagan family and we do not tolerate other religions in our household. If you take this job, we don't want to see symbols or hear the words of another religion while you perform your duties" and you said "okay" and then showed up with a cross on and they booted you out...they shouldn't have to pay, because YOU violated the agreement in that case which led to the termination. Same with guns and being told upon employment that the workplace is a gun free zone.

    When a private resident hires me, they have signed a contract agreeing to allow me onto their property and in so doing have accepted a temporary level of infringement upon their rights through the enforcement of workplace safety rules and employee rights.
    Absolutely. Unless that contract establishes from the onset that certain infringements will not be allowed.

  3. #33
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Just like the expansion of government power forbidding employers to discriminate based on sex, religion, nationality, etc, etc. This is no different.
    Slightly different. One can not leave behind their nationality, go to work, and then pick their nationality back up. Same with their sex. Same really with religion in any kind of practical way, though that becomes more problematic as an abstract concept. However, with a gun you can absolutely do that. They're not discriminating against gun ownership, they're discriminating against bringing a certain item onto their premises. This would be more like passing a law to disallow shop keepers from having a "No shoes, no shirt, no service" policy more so than keeping them from having a "We don't hire black people" policy.

  4. #34
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That depands on the wording of the local statutes, if you are by definition trespassing (simply by being armed) is that NOT then comitting that crime (trespassing) "while armed"?
    If you know that the rule is there and you come on the property anyways, and that suits the tresspassing laws then yeah...you're tresspassing. However, again, that's not strictly because you have a gun...it's because you're violating a rule which is a stated requirement for access to the property. Even then, I think many places with regards to tresspassing you have to...even if it's a stated rule...ask the person to leave the proprety before the cops would actually do anything. Though not sure on that.

    Many states have added penalties (even mandatory minimum prison sentences) specifically for the "while armed" part of their laws.
    And there you get to the part where I do have issue with, because in this part it's not a private citizen with rules/regulations on their private property but the gvoernment actively providing additional punishment for your carrying a weapon.

    Again...I have no issue with it up until the point that the government is actively enforcing punishment on you specifically because you're carrying your gun/having your gun near you in a way that is legal.

  5. #35
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Absolutely, but then that's interjecting a third issue into it in regards to contract rights. If they hire you for a job, make no statements regarding possible issues with a particular religion, you show up, they see your necklace and go "GET OUT"...they still hired you, you showed, they then chose to break the contract. That's on them. Same thing with a gun in that situation.

    However, if at the time they were hiring you they said "Look, we are a Pagan family and we do not tolerate other religions in our household. If you take this job, we don't want to see symbols or hear the words of another religion while you perform your duties" and you said "okay" and then showed up with a cross on and they booted you out...they shouldn't have to pay, because YOU violated the agreement in that case which led to the termination. Same with guns and being told upon employment that the workplace is a gun free zone.

    Absolutely. Unless that contract establishes from the onset that certain infringements will not be allowed.
    If they said that, and If I could prove it, I could sue for the value of the contract. I may only be awarded a portion of the value, but I would have grounds since I would have otherwise gotten that income.

    Defending an employer's 'right' to hold a gun-free zone is exactly like defending their 'right' to discriminate against race. It's exactly the same. Lawful carrying of a personal firearm is a protected right, and employers are no more justified in banning a personal firearm then they are in banning a religion from the payroll.

    Its not enough to simply say 'well if you agreed'....the employer must not be allowed to discriminate in the way. It harms the employee unless the employer can demonstrate a need, such as the presence of hazardous chemicals or the business.

  6. #36
    Sage


    MaggieD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Chicago Area
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    43,243
    Blog Entries
    43

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If they said that, and If I could prove it, I could sue for the value of the contract. I may only be awarded a portion of the value, but I would have grounds since I would have otherwise gotten that income.

    Defending an employer's 'right' to hold a gun-free zone is exactly like defending their 'right' to discriminate against race. It's exactly the same. Lawful carrying of a personal firearm is a protected right, and employers are no more justified in banning a personal firearm then they are in banning a religion from the payroll.

    Its not enough to simply say 'well if you agreed'....the employer must not be allowed to discriminate in the way. It harms the employee unless the employer can demonstrate a need, such as the presence of hazardous chemicals or the business.
    If I say, "You are not allowed to bring guns into my home," I have every right to do so. The right of an employer is no different. Period.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  7. #37
    Pontificator
    iliveonramen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    On a Gravy Train with Biscuit Wheels
    Last Seen
    12-16-17 @ 05:41 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    9,213

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    I disagree. I think they would rule it based on property rights vs 2nd Amendment rights. Reason being, the private property is still in the US and Americans are working there. Those Americans have rights. Owners of private property can't take away Constitutional rights can they? I'm being the devil's advocate btw. Personally, I believe the property rights should hold sway. I'm just thinking out loud.
    Sure they can...you couldn't come on my property and burn an American flag yet that's protected by free speech.

    Edit: I'd like to point out...it's freaking crazy that the 2nd Amendment is treated on the right as some right that trumps all others. Nobody thinks twice if an employer tells an employee to cover up a tatoo even though that technically can be free speech or to dress a certain way.

    The 2nd amendment says the government can't ban guns...it doesn't say that you have some unfettered right to show up with an AR-15 on your back to work.
    Last edited by iliveonramen; 08-01-12 at 03:22 PM.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

  8. #38
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    I tend to agree with you. However, I wouldn't like the idea of not being able to bring it into the parking lot in my vehicle. I can understand not bringing it into the building. But the parking lot? Let's put it this way. By saying I can't keep a weapon in my vehicle, you are now disallowing me to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights because I can't carry a gun on the way to work. Maybe they provide a place to check my weapon in? Maybe in the same manner as when you come aboard a Federal Park. You can check in your weapon with the Park Ranger.
    Guns are allowed in federal parks: New law allows loaded guns in national parks - US news - Life - NBCNews.com

  9. #39
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    You know, in general I don't agree with the extent some of our discrimination laws go so the argument doesn't go quite as strong as you may've hoped Jerry...but it's an interesting notion that at least is worth a step back to think on it.

  10. #40
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    If I say, "You are not allowed to bring guns into my home," I have every right to do so. The right of an employer is no different. Period.
    You are not allowed to infringe on my constitutional rights while I'm an employee in your service. Period. This is true for any and all employers who can't demonstrate a 'need'. It's not harming you, so don't make a deal out of it and let me get back to crafting what is going to become your beautiful new bathroom.

Page 4 of 54 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •