View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #361
    Matthew 16:3

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Currently IL is the only state which denies concealed carry. Open carry only. They've been forced to progress a long way, since the Heller ruling, and they're being worked on, but until they allow concealed carry I think you're right, open carry only.

    Handgunlaw.us
    The progress isn't as much as you'd think. I'd still have to jump through a million and a half hoops to legally own a handgun in my own home since I live in Chicago. Ironically, I could probably get a gun illegally in only a couple of hours without ever leaving the city almost as easily as I could legally purchase a gun in a gun friendly state.

    The laws here are a ****ing joke and most people I know around here agree that they are absurd.
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  2. #362
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Gun violence statistics indicate that with a gun on my property uncontrolled by me that there is a danger to the defense of the property.
    Please link to these statistics.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    You say that you have military training, right? Well how many foreign weapons do you allow inside the perimeter of a military base?
    Please link to the statistics you referred to.

    We're all foreign, except for the Afghan Army. 47 countries compose the ISAF, America is one. Any uniformed ISAF force can carry a loaded weapon on any ISAF installation. All bases are ISAF. Even when Americans operate and control a base, it's still not an 'American base', it's an ISAF base. Non-US military routinely enter US controlled ISAF bases every day, just as the US military enters non-US controlled ISAF bases every day. When I landed in my A.O., it was owned by the Polish Army, and we were under Polish command.

    Now back to private property within the US, not international war zones.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    I have the right to defend myself and my property from possible harm.
    Please link to the statistics you referred to.

    Since CCW carriers are the least likely to commit any crime (and are generally better shots then LEOs) you shouldn't have any objection.

    ***
    I ask again, how are you materially damaged?
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-22-12 at 11:11 AM.

  3. #363
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    Reciprocity is a constitutional matter. States have to recognize each others drivers licences contracts ect. Same theoretically with carry law.
    But hunting and fishing license do not carry over to other States. Non-residents must obtain a non-resident license to hunt or fish.


    Not all laws are mutual between the States.

  4. #364
    Matthew 16:3

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    But hunting and fishing license do not carry over to other States. Non-residents must obtain a non-resident license to hunt or fish.
    That's because hunting and fishing licenses are geographically limited, even within the states where they are issued. A hunting license in Illinois doesn't allow me to shoot deer in a Cook County forest preserve, for example.
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  5. #365
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The progress isn't as much as you'd think. I'd still have to jump through a million and a half hoops to legally own a handgun in my own home since I live in Chicago. Ironically, I could probably get a gun illegally in only a couple of hours without ever leaving the city almost as easily as I could legally purchase a gun in a gun friendly state.

    The laws here are a ****ing joke and most people I know around here agree that they are absurd.
    Wouldn't it be funny if after this reciprocity law passes, you buy a very small piece of cheap property in, say, Iowa, so you could get an IA resident carry permit, and then use that IA permit to carry in IL?

  6. #366
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    But hunting and fishing license do not carry over to other States. Non-residents must obtain a non-resident license to hunt or fish.

    Not all laws are mutual between the States.
    Whereas states have a need to protect local wildlife populations, no state needs to protect felony criminal populations.

  7. #367
    Matthew 16:3

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Wouldn't it be funny if after this reciprocity law passes, you buy a very small piece of cheap property in, say, Iowa, so you could get an IA resident carry permit, and then use that IA permit to carry in IL?
    I'm not entirely sure on this, but I would guess that IA residency would have to be established for some time before I could do that. Hopefully Illinois laws would change before that time passes.

    And then there's dealing with my wife, who is absolutely terrified of the idea of having guns in the house (her family was not a gun family, which is a PITA). Basically right now I have to resort to a variety of other weapons for home defense because of it. At least she's not afraid of compound bows.
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  8. #368
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    FredomFromAll, folks often have valid concerns. I want to discuss those concerns. Let's air the laundry here.

    I gave the example of above-ground fuel tanks. Another example I've heard was from a private business owner didn't want to have to honor CCWs from states which don't require any kind of training. I think that's a reasonable concern we can look into with regard to if/how these classes improve gun accidents and misuse (they don't reduce crime).

    That's just an example, I would like to hear your example, not some vague idea that somehow you're being infringed upon, but actually substantiate your concern.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-22-12 at 11:40 AM.

  9. #369
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I don't understand what you're need is.

    You opened your property to the public. You hired employees. That means you surrendered a level of privacy. You chose to open your property, you can choose to reclose it at any time.

    Once you open your property to the public, or hire an employee, in order to infringe on a specifically enumerated constitutional, or basic human right, the laws allowing your choice must meet Strict Scrutiny standards. This means you must have a specific, demonstratable need.

    When I've discussed this issue before, some pro-property folks spoke up with real examples of demonstratable needs, such as above-ground fuel tanks. Discharge of a firearm could puncture the tank and cause damage to it and the surrounding structures. One could even go into the types of fuel tanks and fuel, building code for such tanks, and research actual fires caused by ruptured tanks. That is an example of a demonstratable need.

    I don't understand why you won't just say what your need is, link to your source material proving it true, so we can move on.

    So again I ask, what is your need?



    The federal law has the authority to regulate specifically enumerated constitutional rights, as per the 10th Amendment. Further, the federal government has the duty to protect specifically enumerated rights against States who would infringe upon them, such as a hand-gun ban or racial segregation in privately owned school.

    So, what is your need? What material damage, with a dollar value, would you or could you suffer if lawful carry were protected? How does it harm you in any way? I thank you in advance for linking to your source material.


    ****
    If you just don't like guns or are paranoid, that's to bad, because that's not good enough. Keep to that argument and this will be forced on you like taxes.
    Its not a matter of need Jerry. Its matter of control, rights, domain and sovereignty. Need is not a factor.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
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  10. #370
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    But hunting and fishing license do not carry over to other States. Non-residents must obtain a non-resident license to hunt or fish.


    Not all laws are mutual between the States.
    Its a contstitutional matter non the less. Resiprocity is clearly defined in the constitution. It will probably have to be ajudicated.
    Semper Fidelis, Semper Liber.
    I spit at lots of people through my computer screen. Not only does it "teach them a lesson" but it keeps the screen clean and shiny.
    Stolen fair and square from the Capt. Courtesey himself.

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