View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #311
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Not to me. I look at things as "Their home, their rules." I wouldn't sneak alcohol into someone's home, either, for the same reasons.
    I'm sorry you think it's seeking. I don't know how to better articulate the difference between privacy and discretion, and underhanded sneaking. Concealed carry isn't inherently devious.

  2. #312
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Ok there e-thug, calm down, it's the internet, no one's impressed.

    So how about those questions? Care to answer them?
    I don’t have much to do today so w will explain things to you in the long version.

    I know that you hold your views that you should be able to carry a gun anywhere that you please without informing the property owner that you are doing so. I have no doubt that I will not sway these beliefs at all, I am simply stating the reality of the situation from my perspective.

    As for “How can you trust the work we're doing, then?”
    I can trust your employer/company. The fact that I let you onto my property and into my house does not mean that I trust you explicitly in all things; it means that I trust that you will do your job and nothing else. My father took my sister’s boyfriend to help him build a deck for a church friend. During the build my sister’s boyfriend took a credit card that had just arrived in the mail and used it. Those people trusted my father, and were disrespected by my sister’s boyfriend. The point is that you do not automatically trust those that come to your house, they must earn it.

    As for “Isn't that the entire point of carrying concealed?”
    As I stated in my previous post I don’t care if you got permission from the government to carry a concealed weapon, if you come onto my property you better get my permission. If you do not get my permission to carry a weapon on my property I will react to you carrying a weapon on my property as a hostile act.

    As for “Me: "Hi, my name is Jerry, this is Bob, we're with Zombie Fortress General Contractors here to work on your secret underground Nazi-super-science genetic lab and massage parlor."

    You: "Would you mind if I see your IDs, please?"

    Me: "Absolutely" *hands you driver's license* "Please feel free to contact my boss and verify our work permit. Would you mind if we set up in your drive way meanwhile?"
    Carpentry does not require the use of a gun that does not fire nails. A concealed gun is at best a hazard that I am not aware of, at worst a threat to the lives of me and my family. I doubt that this was stipulated in my contract with your employer.
    Also from your previous posts you stated that “Breaking the rules has nothing to do with disrespect, either”. This means that there are people out there like you that don’t care about boundaries. People like that are unpredictable so I must always be looking out for those that would “break the rules”.


    As for “Even in castle doctrine states, you can't just pull a gun like that. I would have to be trespassing, which I wouldn't be, and I would have to be committing a felony while trespassing, which I wouldn't be. If you aren't in a castle doctrine state, then I would have to be committing a "forcible felony" and/or immediately threatening someone's life, which I wouldn't be”.
    As I stated before I don’t care if you have a permit from the government to carry a concealed weapon. When you step onto MY property you better get MY permission to carry that weapon or I WILL take you down.

    The police may not charge you with a crime but they will take you off of my property, than tell you not to come back.

    P.S. breaking MY gun laws on MY property might just get you shot.

    I hope this clears thing up for you. Yes you have the right to protect yourself but so do i.
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  3. #313
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    IMO this is the crux of the divide: If you don't care about my constitutional right, why should I care abut yours? In other words, if you believe you should be able to arbitrarily suspend my right, why can't others arbitrarily suspend your right?
    The key part of this issue is that it is the property owners liberty to allow you to be an invitee on to his property. No matter what you do you are not promised to be an invitee on someone elses property. So therefore your rights are not the issue the property owners rights are the issue since your wants in your opinion are above the actual property owners rights.

  4. #314
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    More tough-guy talk. Not impressive, certainly not rational. You didn't clarify anything other than your temper and irrational mindset, which if anything only makes me more likely to carry.

    I do fully respect your property rights. I do. I just don't see how you or any American can place a higher value of stuff then a person's life.

    I don't see any logic there, and when I ask for clarity, all I get in response is bumper-sticker sloganeering. Yes, I know it's your property, but there are many things you already can't do to or forbid from employees and customers even while it's still your property in every way, so "my property, my rules" doesn't help anyone understand.

    And sure, no one forced me to seek employment with you or be your customer. Yes, my participation is 100% voluntary. The other side of that is, no one forced you to be in business, no one forced you to hire fro the public, and no one forced you to open your business to the public and invite the public in.

    So here again we find ourselves on equal footing and the bumper-sticker logic has failed.

    Now I know why the State places a higher value on your stuff them someone's life: Taxes.

    Given that permit holders are the least likely to commit a crime, private property owners are running from shadows.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-18-12 at 11:58 AM.

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    The key part of this issue is that it is the property owners liberty to allow you to be an invitee on to his property. No matter what you do you are not promised to be an invitee on someone elses property.
    When the property owner signed the construction contract, that's exactly the sort of promise he made.

    When an employer chooses to keep an employee on the payroll past 90 days, that is exactly the sort of promise he made.

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Worth repeating from another thread: You want to worry about a lil snub .38 in my pocket, but I've carried a loaded belt-fed machine gun for the last year in living arias, chow halls, command posts, and numerous construction sights. Never have I or anyone in my unit had a negligent discharge or lost control of our weapon. Never. I handle grenades and missiles, rifles and machine guns, but you want to get your panties in a bunch over a pistol which has a maximum effective range of about 10-15 feet.

    You're a ****ing idiot.

    So out of the kindness of my cold, black heart, I've decided to start training with throwing knives. Same range, probably better accuracy with practice, it's not the big-bad gun demon you piss your pants over, and it fits right in with all the tools on my rig.

    Oh, AND I can carry concealed (cutting edge less than 3in = street legal to conceal) throwing knives into businesses which prohibit firearms. Outstanding!

    Oh now you're gona be on the lookout for throwing knives on tool-belts? No problem. Half of what I remodel are kitchens. You what homeowners keep in kitchens? Knives!

    What's that? You gathered up all the knives and put them away before I came over? No problem! Every contractor great and small has a knife of some kind on their person. We literally can't do our job without an edged tool. So go ahead, try telling your contractor that they can't have any kind of blade in your home. Please dear god remember to record the conversation and post it here so we can all laugh at the contractor's reaction and the fee you'll have to pay for terminating the contract before completion.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-18-12 at 01:19 PM.

  7. #317
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Let me shift gears on you here:

    Let's say you don't know me, never seen or heard from me before, we're perfect strangers. Let's assume that for some ungodly reason you ordered a new cabinet set from Lowe's, wanted it installed by someone else (since I know you're in the field, let's say your injured) and Lowe's in turn taped my employer to install it. When we go on a Lowe's-install, we wear a Lowe's t-shirt.

    What could an installer do to establish a good enough repore(sp) with you, so that if you noticed them wearing a concealed pistol a few hours later, you would be ok with it?

    This is open ended, anything at all, answer any way you wish. The question is open to everyone. I would really like to know because I do care.
    I like Tucker Case's posts on this topic, they are pretty well in line with my thinking.

    As far as your question goes it I post a sign on my house that says "If you are carrying weapons notify the Master of this property upon entry. All weapons are welcome, especially if the user is proficent. If you intend to indulge in Alcohol or the like then your weapons are to be deposited and locked in the front weapons locker. If they dont fit the front locker, get the Master of the property to deposit them into the main amoury. Thank you." I don't care so long as I know who has em. The main reason being its my family custom though there are basic underlying reasons for the custom. Practically everyone in my clan has arms about their person all the time. They like their weapons. A lot. They also like drinking. A lot. And fighting. A lot. Hence for for survival purposes the front weapons locker. Yes I really do have a weapons locker in my front entry way. If someone voilates my household policy of notification and or posesion while inebreated then generaly I have them check their arms in the front locker or remove them from the property depending on circumtances and attitudes.

    I guess my sign sums up my attitude on concealed carry and carrying in general.
    Last edited by PirateMk1; 08-18-12 at 01:21 PM. Reason: clarification.
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  8. #318
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Um, excuse me, but of the people participating in this thread, I'm not one of the 2 threatening to shoot someone only because I didn't know they had a gun.

    Kindly take a look in the mirror.

    Talking to Tucker has made me re-think my position. I find myself more agreeable to the other side. However, talking to you and comedy4all only further polarize my view. You should look at his posts and take a lesson.
    I dont care to change your position, but I reserve the right to assert my position. And my position is that you and the Government have no right to dictate who and what I allow on my property. And the fact that other people have dishonestly wiggled around the Constitution is not grounds for you to do the same. I am a firm supporter of the right to bear arms in doing so I have the right to protect my property. You demanding to be on my property with a firearm despite my opinion on the matter, is in reality you making it harder for me to protect my property.


    As I have said from the beginning you have no right to be on my property, therefore you have no right to carry a gun on my property. You and the NRA want to force yourselves onto my property, that I cannot stand for, which makes me question the honesty of yours and the NRA's motives in why you guys think you must force a private property owner in allowing gun owners special rights under the law. That is why I refuse to accept your claims. Because there is a lot more at stake than just the right to carry a firearm, the right to protect my private property, my family, and my employees is a stake here. And I will not just sit by and watch it happen. SO no I do not want to change your mind I want to inform the readers of the dangers that you are supporting.


    Perhaps you can explore those concerns for a change?

  9. #319
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Worth repeating from another thread: You want to worry about a lil snub .38 in my pocket, but I've carried a loaded belt-fed machine gun for the last year in living arias, chow halls, command posts, and numerous construction sights. Never have I or anyone in my unit had a negligent discharge or lost control of our weapon. Never. I handle grenades and missiles, rifles and machine guns, but you want to get your panties in a bunch over a pistol which has a maximum effective range of about 10-15 feet.

    You're a ****ing idiot.

    So out of the kindness of my cold, black heart, I've decided to start training with throwing knives. Same range, probably better accuracy with practice, it's not the big-bad gun demon you piss your pants over, and it fits right in with all the tools on my rig.

    Oh, AND I can carry concealed (cutting edge less than 3in = street legal to conceal) throwing knives into businesses which prohibit firearms. Outstanding!

    Oh now you're gona be on the lookout for throwing knives on tool-belts? No problem. Half of what I remodel are kitchens. You what homeowners keep in kitchens? Knives!

    What's that? You gathered up all the knives and put them away before I came over? No problem! Every contractor great and small has a knife of some kind on their person. We literally can't do out job without an edged tool. So go ahead, try telling your contractor that they can't have any kind of blade in your home. Please dear god remember to record the conversation and post it here so we can all laugh at the contractor's reaction and the fee you'll have to pay for terminating the contract before completion.
    In that case if I see fit I do not wnat you and your knife on my property, which again is my call not yours.

  10. #320
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateMk1 View Post
    I like Tucker Case's posts on this topic, they are pretty well in line with my thinking.

    As far as your question goes it I post a sign on my house that says "If you are carrying weapons notify the Master of this property upon entry. All weapons are welcome, especially if the user is proficent. If you intend to indulge in Alcohol or the like then your weapons are to be deposited and locked in the front weapons locker. If they dont fit the front locker, get the Master of the property to deposit them into the main amoury. Thank you." I don't care so long as I know who has em. The main reason being its my family custom though there are basic underlying reasons for the custom. Practically everyone in my clan has arms about their person all the time. They like their weapons. A lot. They also like drinking. A lot. And fighting. A lot. Hence for for survival purposes the front weapons locker. Yes I really do have a weapons locker in my front entry way. If someone voilates my household policy of notification and or posesion while inebreated then generaly I have them check their arms in the front locker or remove them from the property depending on circumtances and attitudes.

    I guess my sign sums up my attitude on concealed carry and carrying in general.
    I want to have your child.

    I won't ask your clan name, but what is your nationality? I don't want to guess because I'm usually wrong and folks take offence.

    My clan is Scottish, though we've thinned out over the last couple generations, sadly.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-18-12 at 01:27 PM.

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