View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #291
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by comedy4all View Post
    In that scenario; you are doing some work in MY house. I donít know you, I donít fully trust you...
    How can you trust the work we're doing, then?

    Quote Originally Posted by comedy4all View Post
    and I was not made aware of you carrying a weapon before you entered MY property.
    Isn't that the entire point of carrying concealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by comedy4all View Post
    I would have no way of knowing what your intentions are.
    Me: "Hi, my name is Jerry, this is Bob, we're with Zombie Fortress General Contractors here to work on your secret underground Nazi-super-science genetic lab and massage parlor."

    You: "Would you mind if I see your IDs, please?"

    Me: "Absolutely" *hands you driver's license* "Please feel free to contact my boss and verify our work permit. Would you mind if we set up in your drive way meanwhile?"

    Quote Originally Posted by comedy4all View Post
    To protect myself and all others that are under my protection on my property; OH YES I would take you down fast and hog tie you until the police took you away. Being fully within my rights to do so.
    Even in castle doctrine states, you can't just pull a gun like that. I would have to be trespassing, which I wouldn't be, and I would have to be committing a felony while trespassing, which I wouldn't be. If you aren't in a castle doctrine state, then I would have to be committing a "forcible felony" and/or immediately threatening someone's life, which I wouldn't be.

  2. #292
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Based on what I know about you, I'd personally have no problems letting you into my house carrying. But that's because I've interacted with you enough to reach the conclusion that you would not be irresponsible with your weapon.

    Some random Joe? Who knows? How can I be certain that they don't unholster the weapon and put it down when they are moving some lumber around because it's jamming them in the side? I've seen plenty of guys remove their toolbags when moving equipment, so it's certainly possible that someone could do something similar with a gun. I've also seen people leave **** on a job site. Hell, I've done it.

    Random people shouldn't be trusted to be responsible. If anything, evidence tells us that random people should be expected to be irresponsible until they show otherwise.
    Let me shift gears on you here:

    Let's say you don't know me, never seen or heard from me before, we're perfect strangers. Let's assume that for some ungodly reason you ordered a new cabinet set from Lowe's, wanted it installed by someone else (since I know you're in the field, let's say your injured) and Lowe's in turn taped my employer to install it. When we go on a Lowe's-install, we wear a Lowe's t-shirt.

    What could an installer do to establish a good enough repore(sp) with you, so that if you noticed them wearing a concealed pistol a few hours later, you would be ok with it?

    This is open ended, anything at all, answer any way you wish. The question is open to everyone. I would really like to know because I do care.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-17-12 at 12:03 PM.

  3. #293
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    That's not at all what you said. You gave no qualifiers, no context. You said if I brought anything you didn't want into your house, you would just draw a gun on me. That's what you said. If that's not what you meant, own it, because you lost control of your keyboard when you had an emotional spike.

    If you can't even control what you say on a discussion forum, maybe you shouldn't have a firearm, either.

    ROFL.....go about your business in lieing bliss...you just want to be right at all costs...and your talking to the wrong guy for that...and I was carrying guns before you were born...loool.....
    I said from the first POST>....MY HOUSE MY HOUSE...I said if someone requests I do not being a firearm in thier..house..I either DONT BRING IT IN or I stay out of their house...now you can swish and dance and sing all the lullabyes you want...thats all the CLARIFICATION and qualifiers your going to get...LMAO....your a trip dude

  4. #294
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    ROFL.....go about your business in lieing bliss...you just want to be right at all costs...and your talking to the wrong guy for that...and I was carrying guns before you were born...loool.....
    I said from the first POST>....MY HOUSE MY HOUSE...I said if someone requests I do not being a firearm in thier..house..I either DONT BRING IT IN or I stay out of their house...now you can swish and dance and sing all the lullabyes you want...thats all the CLARIFICATION and qualifiers your going to get...LMAO....your a trip dude
    Do you have an answer to my previous question? I would love to hear it.

  5. #295
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Let me shift gears on you here:

    Let's say you don't know me, never seen or heard from me before, we're perfect strangers. Let's assume that for some ungodly reason you ordered a new cabinet set from Lowe's, wanted it installed by someone else (since I know you're in the field, let's say your injured) and Lowe's in turn taped my employer to install it. When we go on a Lowe's-install, we wear a Lowe's t-shirt.

    What could an installer do to establish a good enough repore(sp) with you, so that if you noticed them wearing a concealed pistol a few hours later, you would be ok with it?

    This is open ended, anything at all, answer any way you wish. The question is open to everyone. I would really like to know because I do care.
    The hypothetical is almost to strange for me because even if I was injured (and I'd have to be severely injured in a damned near permanent way in order to get someone else to hang cabinets for me) I would never go through Lowe's or Home Depot for the work. I know way too many people in the trades personally to go with strangers. So it's actually a bit difficult for me to imagine myself in that scenario.

    But I think I'd be pissed off that some random dude came into my home carrying without making it known to me. I'd probably ask him to leave then and there because he didn't tell me first because he's already shown himself to be untrustworthy by virtue of keeping it a secret while he was in my home, IMO. Had he said from the start, "I'm carrying concealed, I just want to let you know that before I do any work here" I'd be much more inclined to let him in and just tell him to keep it well hidden since my wife might freak out if she saw it.

    Right now in my internship, I am working with foster children who are often in very, very bad neighborhoods here in the Chicagoland area (everyone has been hearing about the crime and murders here lately and I'm talking about the neighborhoods where that is going on).

    Even though I'm going out there to help troubled kids, I am an intruder in these people's homes. They are trusting me by letting me in there. I'm there as a mental health professional working with children who are often the relatives of the foster parents, so you might think that they are already trusting me with more than enough to feel comfortable with me carrying in their home, but it's a different animal entirely because being a competent mental health professional is a very different thing than being competent with a gun.

    I would never violate their trust in such a manner, even though I am very much putting myself at great risk of becoming the victim of a crime by going into those neighborhoods without any protection. That's a risk I have chosen to take. If I do become a statistic because of my choice, then that's on me for making that choice. That's my stance on things.

    Granted, it's flat-out illegal for me or anyone else to carry concealed due to the laws in Illinois (laws I firmly disagree with, btw) but the point I am making remains. I'm saying what I am saying as someone who is probably at a much degree of risk than most people, when you consider the crime rates in the neighborhoods I am going into alone, unarmed, and at night. I do something where carrying concealed for protection purposes not only makes sense, but I would guess that most people wouldn't even consider doing it unless they could carry concealed. Yet I would never consider carrying in these people's homes because it would be a violation of their trust.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  6. #296
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Do you have an answer to my previous question? I would love to hear it.
    You have all the answers your going to get after you emotional loss of reason...

  7. #297
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    I'm having a hard time understanding how not telling someone I'm carrying, is a violation of trust.

    I'm trying to add to this post but I'm just drawing a blank. I don't get it.

    Are there other things which could be considered a violation of trust, if I don't tell you about them before hand? If there are, then that would help me associate a concealed gun relative to these other things and get a better sense of where you're coming from.

    A footnote: the most likely, if not only reason I wouldn't tell a client before-hand that I was carrying, is that I don't want to make waves with my employer. My employer doesn't know either. Chances are, even if they don't care, friction between client and employer = small pay check. My point is, I'm trying to be discrete, not secretive. I don't think many people make the same distinction, though.

    There's a lot of things I don't tell my employer about because they're private. I don't tell him when I have jock-itch, I don't air my dirty laundry about my divorce (he has the basic idea but I don't give the gory details), if I were a woman I wouldn't announce to a client that I was on my period before working in his home. To me, that's the same thing.

    I know we have a difference of opinion here, but I'm trying to avoid fighting as much as I can. From where I'm sitting, requiring me to tell you that I'm carrying is exactly like requiring me to give you access to my Facebook and e-mail before hand. To me, it's not about trust, it's just my privacy, so I view a 'duty to announce' as a breach in trust.

    It's just a difference I'm trying to explore, because I have to deal with people of all different views on this. The more information I have, the better I can navigate.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-17-12 at 01:03 PM.

  8. #298
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I'm having a hard time understanding how not telling someone I'm carrying, is a violation of trust.
    Going into someone else's house armed has long been considered a sign of disrespect. Since medieval times, at least. Sneaking the weapon into someone's home is the height of disrespectful, and it's also extremely cowardly.

    If they are wiling to be honest about being armed, they are at least showing that they respect your home and your rules.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  9. #299
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Going into someone else's house armed has long been considered a sign of disrespect. Since medieval times, at least. Sneaking the weapon into someone's home is the height of disrespectful, and it's also extremely cowardly.

    If they are wiling to be honest about being armed, they are at least showing that they respect your home and your rules.
    It's new to me, I guess I'll have to do some research on it for context. I appreciate your feed back, it's been very helpful.

    If it would be ok to pry at this topic a little more: When I get home I'll be working on my black-belt, would you also consider it a breach of trust if I did not announce my combative's training before working on your home?

    I mean, that's not something I can leave in the car....
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-17-12 at 01:21 PM.

  10. #300
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    It's new to me, I guess I'll have to do some research on it for context. I appreciate your feed back, it's been very helpful.

    If it would be ok to pry at this topic a little more: When I get home I'll be working on my black-belt, would you also consider it a breach of trust if I did not announce my combative's training before working on your home?

    I mean, that's not something I can leave in the car....
    No, there'd be no expectation to reveal your martial arts training for exactly the reason you give at the end of your post. You can't leave it in your car.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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