View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #281
    Matthew 16:3

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I've been on this and a couple other forums recently, trying to wrap my mind around the idea that a snub .38 is a threat, but all the other tools I bring into someone's house is ok. I mean, if I wanted to harm a family, I wouldn't need a firearm. Just with the tools in my trunk I could subdue a family of 4 and make an armature SAW film. A snub .38 is....nothing. A homeowner wouldn't think twice if they saw me assemble an air-powered nail gun. they might give me a weird look when I duct-tape the barrel safety down, but will certainly bleed when I hold down the trigger and nails come flying out with the speed of a machine gun.
    The difference is range. While you could hypothetically subdue a family of four and take a skill saw to them, you have to get in close for it. You can't kill someone from a distance with a ramset or a nailgun. That ****'s limited to the movies. Hell, I pulled back the safety on a hitachi nailgun once and shot a full clip of 16 pennies at a giant friggin' rat that was in the basement of a job I was doing and didn't even pierce it's skin from only about 10 feet away. Scared it away, at least. The problem is that the nails start flipping immediately after they leave the gun. There's no rifling, see.

    Hell, I took a nail straight through my hand once. Stupid carelessness on my part, but a direct hit to the part between my left thumb and forefinger. The end came out near the base of my ring finger. Didn't even break the bone. Instead it ricocheted off of the bone and slid across my palm instead. Severed the nerve to my index finger, which required surgery, but I could have gotten away with not even going to the doctor if I was willing to live without any feeling at all in my finger for the rest of my life (I have partial feeling now).

    If you taped down the safety, you probably wouldn't do much damage at all. Actually, with some guns you don't even need to tape it down. The hitachi's that I used to use could have been shot with one hand if you knew how to hold the part of the safety that allows the trigger to work while operating the trigger. It was easy to do, and I could show you in two seconds if we had the gun in front of us, but I don't know how to explain it easily in words. For ****s and giggles sometimes we'd have shooting competitions with them during coffee break, shooting cans and ****. You'd be surprised how hard it was to even pierce an empty aluminum can with one of them from any distance. Like I said, they flip. You'd have to get lucky by having it flip to the point right as it reached the can in order to pierce it.

    Anyway, my point is at any distance over 10-15 feet, you'd probably sting anyone you shot at more than wound them, and you probably wouldn't draw blood more often than not. That's provided you even hit them from that distance, because, again, they are far from accurate.

    Whereas a .38 snub will do a ****ton of damage from 10-15 feet. Overall, it's pretty damned easy to see why people would be more nervous of a gun in their home than carpentry tools, IMO. Frankly, I find it odd that you are a carpenter and a gun owner who cannot see why people might think that way. If someone was completely clueless about the realistic amount of damage a nailgun could inflict from 10 feet away (which ain't all that much different from the damage a bb gun could inflict from that distance) compared to a realistic amount of damage a .38 could inflict from 10 feet away, I could see thinking they are comparable, buit not someone who has experience with both tools.

    You could kill a family of four in less than a minute with a .38 from about 10 feet away. You'd have extreme difficulty killing just one person from that distance with a nail gun if you shot at them for hours, if not days.

    On top of that, if you are coming into a person's home to perform a specific task, you are assumed to be competent in that field. You do not deserve the assumption of competence in any other realm, though, and that includes the realm of firearms safety. Nor should anyone be expected to simply accept your word that you are competent in that regard.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  2. #282
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    On top of that, if you are coming into a person's home to perform a specific task, you are assumed to be competent in that field. You do not deserve the assumption of competence in any other realm, though, and that includes the realm of firearms safety. Nor should anyone be expected to simply accept your word that you are competent in that regard.
    I wouldn't have a problem showing my CCW and military ID on-demand to any homeowner.

  3. #283
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    More sloganeering. I was hoping you would have something of substance to add. I would like to explore the logic under the slogan. Reiterating the slogan doesn't help clarify the slogan.
    Jerry Im sorry you think its a slogan...but let me try and make this clearer....You try to come in my home with something I dont want you to bring...and you will be confronted with one or more of my guns.....Is that a slogan ?....I think not...its my DEMAND for anyone wanting to come in my house....I cant get any clearer and unsloganed than that for ya

  4. #284
    Matthew 16:3

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I wouldn't have a problem showing my CCW and military ID on-demand to any homeowner.
    I'm not convinced that that's enough to warrant an assumption of competence. Wasn't there a story just a few months ago about a cop carelessly leaving a loaded gun within reach of a child who then shot another kid with that gun? And around the same time, a dude with a CCW (I'm not sure if he had military experience) left his loaded gun within reach of a toddler who then shot himself.

    Tools that are carelessly left about are dangerous, and plenty of contractors are capable of doing that, but they are less dangerous than a loaded gun which is carelessly left about for a few reasons. First, they just aren't nearly as lethal. They aren't designed to be, and often they are designed with safety (as in preventing harm to self and others) as a primary concern. Next, tools are typically way heavier than a gun, meaning it's less likely that a child can do serious damage with them than they could with a gun (but obviously not impossible, far from it in fact. Anyone who leaves any construction tool around carelessly is still being negligent).

    Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with some people carrying in my home. My best friend carries in my house all the time. I know he's not an idiot. I know some other people who are equally qualified legally to carry that I'd never want inside of my house with a gun because I know they are idiots. The fact that they happen to be cops doesn't matter to me, because I know they are idiots and I don't want any idiot in my house with a gun. It also means that I know that even idiots can be legally qualified to carry, so I don't really see a legal qualification to carry as a reason to assume competence.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  5. #285
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Jerry Im sorry you think its a slogan...but let me try and make this clearer....You try to come in my home with something I dont want you to bring...and you will be confronted with one or more of my guns.....Is that a slogan ?....I think not...its my DEMAND for anyone wanting to come in my house....I cant get any clearer and unsloganed than that for ya
    Really? So you're gona pull your gun on me if you don't like my droid? If you tell me "no DeWalt" and I don't know what else to do, so I work on the project with my DeWalt tools, you're going to threaten my life?

    Wow.

    If you pull a gun on an otherwise peaceful visitor (which the typical contractor is) just because they have a holstered pistol, even if you are in a Castle Doctrine state, you are going to prison.

    So no, you haven't clarified anything.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-17-12 at 11:05 AM.

  6. #286
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Really? So you're gona pull your gun on me if you don't like my droid? If you tell me "no DeWalt" and I don't know what else to do, so I work on the project with my DeWalt tools, you're going to threaten my life?

    Wow.

    If you pull a gun on an otherwise peaceful visitor (which the typical contractor is) just because they have a holstered pistol, even if you are in a Castle Doctrine state, you are going to prison.

    So no, you haven't clarified anything.

    No jerry were talking about you bringing guns in my house if I ask you not too....why do you keep trying to put all extraneous nonesense into it buddy....To me this is pretty simplified...dont come in my fricken house If I dont want you too...

  7. #287
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I'm not convinced that that's enough to warrant an assumption of competence. Wasn't there a story just a few months ago about a cop carelessly leaving a loaded gun within reach of a child who then shot another kid with that gun? And around the same time, a dude with a CCW (I'm not sure if he had military experience) left his loaded gun within reach of a toddler who then shot himself.

    Tools that are carelessly left about are dangerous, and plenty of contractors are capable of doing that, but they are less dangerous than a loaded gun which is carelessly left about for a few reasons. First, they just aren't nearly as lethal. They aren't designed to be, and often they are designed with safety (as in preventing harm to self and others) as a primary concern. Next, tools are typically way heavier than a gun, meaning it's less likely that a child can do serious damage with them than they could with a gun (but obviously not impossible, far from it in fact. Anyone who leaves any construction tool around carelessly is still being negligent).

    Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with some people carrying in my home. My best friend carries in my house all the time. I know he's not an idiot. I know some other people who are equally qualified legally to carry that I'd never want inside of my house with a gun because I know they are idiots. The fact that they happen to be cops doesn't matter to me, because I know they are idiots and I don't want any idiot in my house with a gun. It also means that I know that even idiots can be legally qualified to carry, so I don't really see a legal qualification to carry as a reason to assume competence.
    I feel what you're saying about some legal carriers being idiots. I have to enter their homes to work. If anything that's just more reason for me to carry. However, you're making a general argument about what's required to get a CCW, not carrying while on the job specifically.

    So, this is where I start to get frustrated. No one is talking about a "left about" loaded gun. I'm advocating concealed carry. Not walking into someone's house and leaving a gun on the bench. I'm talking about a pistol which stays in it's holster, on my person, at all times, unless the gravest extreme arises. That's what "concealed carry" means.

    The pistol is not being used, the tools are. Therefore the homeowner has more to worry about from the tools, supplies, etc, then a gun.

    The topical homeowner undergoing a construction project has a hell of a lot more to fear from a car accident on the way home from Lowe's, falling objects or worn electrical cords, then any firearm. Applying your concern to that, a homeowner might want some kind of credential that I'm a safe worker. I keep my OSHA-10Hr card and a couple industry club memberships in my wallet for that reason. (for those who don't know, industry clubs love holding regular safety and awareness classes and certification os all sorts, and workers love to sport stickers and other flair on their hardhats or, occasionally, on their tool belt showing achievement).

    You want some proof? I can give you proof. No problem. I'm proud of it so why would I pass up an opportunity to show off?
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-17-12 at 11:24 AM.

  8. #288
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Kind of hypocritical, don't you think? You so much as notice a weapon on me, and you imedialty pull yours? And you want to lecture me on respect? HA!
    In that scenario; you are doing some work in MY house. I don’t know you, I don’t fully trust you, and I was not made aware of you carrying a weapon before you entered MY property. I would have no way of knowing what your intentions are.

    To protect myself and all others that are under my protection on my property; OH YES I would take you down fast and hog tie you until the police took you away. Being fully within my rights to do so.
    COMEDY 4 ALL! it's a life Philosophy.

    Chuck Norris once got bit by a king cobra. after five days of agonizing pain, the cobra died!

  9. #289
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    No jerry were talking about you bringing guns in my house if I ask you not too.
    That's not at all what you said. You gave no qualifiers, no context. You said if I brought anything you didn't want into your house, you would just draw a gun on me. That's what you said. If that's not what you meant, own it, because you lost control of your keyboard when you had an emotional spike.

    If you can't even control what you say on a discussion forum, maybe you shouldn't have a firearm, either.

  10. #290
    Matthew 16:3

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    So, this is where I start to get frustrated. No one is talking about a "left about" loaded gun. I'm advocating concealed carry. Not walking into someone's house and leaving a gun on the bench. I'm talking about a pistol which stays in it's holster, on my person, at all times, unless the gravest extreme arises. That's what "concealed carry" means.
    Based on what I know about you, I'd personally have no problems letting you into my house carrying. But that's because I've interacted with you enough to reach the conclusion that you would not be irresponsible with your weapon.

    Some random Joe? Who knows? How can I be certain that they don't unholster the weapon and put it down when they are moving some lumber around because it's jamming them in the side? I've seen plenty of guys remove their toolbags when moving equipment, so it's certainly possible that someone could do something similar with a gun. I've also seen people leave **** on a job site. Hell, I've done it.

    Random people shouldn't be trusted to be responsible. If anything, evidence tells us that random people should be expected to be irresponsible until they show otherwise.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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