View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #251
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpast View Post
    Jerry heres the thing...we dont smoke in someones home that asks us not too...If someone tells me no guns allowed in their house...at that point my choice is...dont bring a gun in their house or dont go into their house. A persons home is their castle as I see it..
    Smoking is not comparable to lawful possession of a firearm. I don't know why you would even think to make the comparison. There is no amendment protecting smoking. Smoking can't be used as a form of self defense. I have no idea how I would stop the couple rabid dogs I'v had to shoot in the past, with a cigarette. I have no idea how a tobacco pipe could be used to thwart off an assault from the ex-wife's angry gang-banger boyfriend.

    As I said, if I'm there as a social guest, I would leave. If I'm there as an employee, then the trick is to not get caught.

    So if you want to keep going down the 'it's my house' bumper-sticker sloganeering, fine, it's your house, so just don't ever open it to employees or the public. No problem.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-16-12 at 07:56 AM.

  2. #252
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    So far we have been discussing property-rights of businesses. What about homes? Would the same remain true for homes in your opinion, Jerry? If I invite a neighbor to my house, shouldn't I be able to tell him to not bring a concealed weapon with him? I'm not trying to build a strawman, but rather trying to understand why you think business owners don't have the right to decide who can be on their property... Is it because it is a 'public' storefront?

  3. #253
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    I have always understood carrying concealed to be just that. No one knows you're packing, so no harm, no foul. Business owners aren't going to frisk you when you enter their property, neither are home owners.

    If you get asked to leave because of your gun, you're not concealing the gun properly, and you need to find a different way of carrying it on your person.

    That said, you should think twice about packing in a Bank, Bar, Jewelry store, or Courthouse. Some of those places might have a metal detector.

  4. #254
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If I'm there as a social guest I would leave entirely. I have real credible threats against my self and family and there's nothing going on at your place which would justify my letting down my guard to those threats.

    Please understand that this is not meant to be personal to you in any way, nor is it unique to firearms. I would no sooner leave my cell phone in the car, either, because my child or elderly parents might have an emergency.

    My need to have the item is so great that I would be willing to cause tension in our friendship to keep it. I don't make the decision lightly, and I'd rather not have to make it at all, but if I'm forced into the corner have have to make it, I choose the item. Your gun-free house can't protect me from the very real gang members my ex-wife riled up. Your gun-free house can't protect me from the rabid wild dogs I've had to shoot in the past (which are the reason I started carrying in the first place).

    If I'm there as a contractor, I would put it in my car and look for an opportunity to retrieve it while you weren't paying attention. I need the job, so I'll make nice with the client, but I also need to be ready.



    I have a hard time conveying to people how nieve that statement is. I didn't ask for my ex to turn bat-**** crazy and stir up some gang members. Chances are I didn't specifically request to be sent to you house, either. I just take whatever jobs I'm handed, employers tend to like that quality.

    From where I'm coming from, I have bills to pay just like everyone else. I have to have a job, and carpentry is what I'm trained in. It takes to much time and money to completely re-train to another profession just to roll the dice and see if that employer/client allows firearms. If they don't, then folks like yourself would expect me to take a few more years and another $10,000 to re-train yet again. I end up in an endless cycle of training, never actually having a career, all because I want nothing more than to exorsize a specifically enumerated constitutionally protected right. Also, there are credible threats I need to be ready for. I feel, and this is just how I view my situation, that I'm in a survival scenario. I have to avoid detection by the employer and client while remaining ready for the ex-wife's angry gang boyfriend.

    The way I see it, non of this has anything to do with respect in any way. It has nothing to do with respecting you or my employer. Braking the rules has nothing to do with disrespect, either. To me, the entire topic of respect is completely besides the point.

    To me, it's about survival.
    You come with too much baggage as a contractor. For safety reasons I would just not let you on my property period. But most likely I would not know about those things like gang members and your dishonesty and willingness to go behind my back and carry a gun anyways. Which is why someone may create a gun free zone in the first place to keep people like you that are dishonest and pose a risk to the safety of everyone else out of harms way.

  5. #255
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    I'm so sick of these whiney victim ****s pretending their rights are infringed upon. Quit your ****ing job if you don't like the rules that they have, you whiny no-personal-responsibility-having ****. People shouldn't beg the nanny state to protect them, instead they need slap on a pair of ****ing balls and bear their arms to their heart's content. Nobody's stopping them form doing that, they're just too much of a ****ing coward to step up and take a stand.

    This is why our country is in the crapper. People are too ****ing cowardly to take a stand on their own. They always need the government to step in and protect them from uncomfortable choices. Big government bitches. And they infest both sides of the political divide.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  6. #256
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    Does this mean that the 18 yr old public high school senior can keep a firearm in their vehicle while parked in the school parking lot?
    No.

    You have to be 21 years old to buy, own or posses a pistol, so we're automatically not suggesting that highschool students be armed.... unless you know of 21 year-olds who are still in highschool.

    You will see pro-gun folks use the term "an otherwise lawfully possessed firearm" for this exact reason. An 18 y/o is not otherwise lawfully possessing a pistol when they then bring it onto school grounds, so they are excluded from our advocacy.

  7. #257
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    My point was to correct your claim that I was trying to regulate firearms.

    If you want to categorically remove laws which regulate firearms, then I trust you oppose giving 'no-firearms' signs legal backing? I'm talking about states which make it a separate crime of criminal trespass, not someone who is asked to leave and refuses.
    I am opposed to new laws in general. You can already press charges against someone that refuse to leave your property if there is a legal reason to do so.

    Carrying a licensed concealed gun into a store or other public places of business is one thing, but carrying that weapon into area that are not used by the public is an entirely different situation. My home is not a public area by no means, nor is the building where I work out of. The only people that go in either are invited guests. The same goes for businesses that manufacture items, the employees are guests invited for the sole purpose of working. Most states require the business owner to provide a safe work space. That includes reasonable safety of the workers from other people coming onto the property. In fact most manufacturing plants will not allow visitors to enter the property. And if you do they may call the police and charge you with trespassing.



    I gave justification should the state choose to require a class. I don't have a strong opinion on this one. I can go either way. If the state wants me to take a class, fine, not the end of the world. If they don't, that's one less thing I have to worry about. One of the reasons I chose to live in SD is because we're moving away from requiring a permit at all. The existing permit doesn't require any kind of class. $10 and your permit arrives in the mail within 2 weeks. IMO we should make basic gun safety a mandatory part of the HS curriculum, that way everyone has the class by default even if they never own a gun.
    Either the 2nd Amendment has power or it doesnt. if you keep giving up that power soon it will have no power.

    Gun safety is the job of the parents. If they feel that their children need lessons in gun safety they can personally teach it to their children or pay someone to do it.


    IMO every citizen should have to do a 2-year term of military service. Couple that with the total elimination of CCWs and everyone is happy.
    Forced military service does not make a good soldier.

    the red countries in this map are countries with conscription. Notice anything obvious about which countries those are and what countries do not have conscription? Hint: the majority of the red countries do not represent the free world.


  8. #258
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    So far we have been discussing property-rights of businesses. What about homes? Would the same remain true for homes in your opinion, Jerry? If I invite a neighbor to my house, shouldn't I be able to tell him to not bring a concealed weapon with him? I'm not trying to build a strawman, but rather trying to understand why you think business owners don't have the right to decide who can be on their property... Is it because it is a 'public' storefront?
    My core tenant is this: The right of every citizen who can otherwise lawfully posses a firearm, to have their right to carry into all places open to the public, protected (non-subjective, un-arbitrary exceptions do exist).

    So, have you opened your home to the public? Are you holding an open-house to sell your home? Do you run a business out of your home where you invite clients into your home; day-care or physical therapy, for example? Are you holding an in-house garage sale (aka 'house sale')? Have you hired employees or contractors to do work in your home?

    If your answer to these questions is 'no', then my answer to you is also 'no'. If you answered any of these questions with 'yes', then my answer to you is also 'yes'.

    No part of my advocacy regards what's called "social guests", which is what you neighbor would be if you just invited them over for dinner. My focus is on places open to the public and places of employment.

    I also apply conditions, which include but are not limited to:
    • The firearm must remain on the employee's or regular citizen's person at all times; never left in a bag or an office or desk, etc. The person must maintain 100% "positive control" at all times.
    • An employee's right to carry is only protected while they are there to work. If they just stop by for non business related reasons, they are "social guests" and the employer may ban their firearm.
    • An employee or regular citizen must have their CCW card on their person and allow the property owner to inspect it on-demand.
    • An employer has the right to make a photo copy of the CCW for their records.
    • The method of carry must not interfere with the wear and appearance of the employer's dress-code or uniform.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-16-12 at 10:46 AM.

  9. #259
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I'm so sick of these whiney victim ****s pretending their rights are infringed upon. Quit your ****ing job if you don't like the rules that they have, you whiny no-personal-responsibility-having ****. People shouldn't beg the nanny state to protect them, instead they need slap on a pair of ****ing balls and bear their arms to their heart's content. Nobody's stopping them form doing that, they're just too much of a ****ing coward to step up and take a stand.

    This is why our country is in the crapper. People are too ****ing cowardly to take a stand on their own. They always need the government to step in and protect them from uncomfortable choices. Big government bitches. And they infest both sides of the political divide.
    Oh grow up already.

  10. #260
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Oh grow up already.
    when you start taking personal responsibility for your choices, I'll be a grown up. Deal?
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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