View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #201
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    Under this logic, would you suggest legally licensed-to-carry individuals ought to be able to bring guns into local courthouses
    No. Like an emergency room or a bar, the events in a court house are to emotionally charged. An otherwise calm and rational person could have a momentary laps of control depending on the case; especially in a child custody battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    , etc.?
    Like a public school? Yes, citizens with a permit should be allowed to carry onto any public school:
    Oregon Firearms Federation

    Putting aside for a moment that Oregon does not issue "concealed weapons permits," this school just like every other public school in the state, has NO authority to forbid a person with a concealed handgun license from entering school property. While both Oregon and Federal law forbid people from being on school property with firearms, concealed handgun license holders are exempt from both laws.Oregon statute 166.370 forbids firearms in "public buildings" which schools are, but subsection B says "this section does not apply to:... (d) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun"

    As we have said elsewhere, if you have a child you maycarry unto public school property.
    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    You do not have a 'right' to be on my property unless the government says that you do not.
    When you have hired me as an employee or are operating a business which is open to the public, yes, I have a right to be on your property; as an employee during my shift, and as a customer while doing business with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    You cannot come on my property and say whatever you want, despite your freedom of speech.
    Actually, unless I'm causing a disturbance (ie I'm damaging you, by causing customers to leave) yes I can. If I come into your diner and have a quiet conversation with a friend and you want to remove us simply because you disagree with what we're saying, you are braking Public Accommodation laws and can be cited by the city.

    My holstered concealed pistol isn't harming anyone, either.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-08-12 at 12:27 PM.

  2. #202
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    That is false. Speech is not protected by what you are calling "public accommodation laws."

  3. #203
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    No. Like an emergency room or a bar, the events in a court house are to emotionally charged. An otherwise calm and rational person could have a momentary laps of control depending on the case; especially in a child custody battle.



    Like a public school? Yes, citizens with a permit should be allowed to carry onto any public school:




    When you have hired me as an employee or are operating a business which is open to the public, yes, I have a right to be on your property; as an employee during my shift, and as a customer while doing business with you.



    Actually, unless I'm causing a disturbance (ie I'm damaging you, by causing customers to leave) yes I can. If I come into your diner and have a quiet conversation with a friend and you want to remove us simply because you disagree with what we're saying, you are braking Public Accommodation laws and can be cited by the city.

    My holstered concealed pistol isn't harming anyone, either.
    If we're discussing strictly what 'ought' to be, then what you are saying is that you want more government control in our lives. Your premises are other laws that have been created and upheld and then suggesting that we ought to change the gun-laws to align them with the other laws.

    I agree that they are misaligned, but I'm explaining that to align them, we don't decrease the rights property owners even further, but rather increase their rights so that they have full control over their property again.

    So pointing out all of the things that you can do already isn't helping your case. I agree, I couldn't reasonably disagree, with those facts. But I'm arguing that they aren't right and how they ought to be changed, as you are arguing how the gun laws ought to be changed.

    The government should not be allowed to tell me that it is the right of types of individuals to do business with me if I disagree. I should be able to freely choose who I can do business with and who is on my property. And if society is truly against my beliefs, then my business will not last.

    I'm not an extremist in this sense, as some libertarians are. I understand that there is a point in which government involvement is necessary to uphold the fabric of our desired society. Ideally not so, but in reality, yes. But I think we've already gone too far and such a legislative move would only take us further.

  4. #204
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    That is false. Speech is not protected by what you are calling "public accommodation laws."
    Out of my entire argument, that's all you got?

    Try it sometime. Good luck

  5. #205
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    If we're discussing strictly what 'ought' to be, then what you are saying is that you want more government control in our lives.
    Call it what you want. A rose by any other name....

    I want to add 'citizens lawfully carrying a firearm' to the protected list in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. If that seems like more government control to you then ok.

    Hey, while we're at it, let's add 'sexual orientation' to the list, too. Seriously, it's about time we put that issue to bed, too. Or do you also want to discriminate against gays?

    Call it government infringement if you want, this is still the right thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    The government should not be allowed to tell me that it is the right of types of individuals to do business with me if I disagree.
    The government already does. You've already lost that battle, and you have no hope of re-fighting it. The Civil Rights Act is here to stay. When you applied for a business license you agreed to follow various codes specific to businesses. These codes, which you voluntarily agreed to, impose on your core, pure right to property and privacy. You can rescind that agreement at any time, but for as long as you voluntarily hold a buisness license, you are voluntarily allowing various infringements on your right to property and privacy.

    If you want to discriminate without limit, great: close up shop, rip up your bushiness license and do as you please. Stand out on your porch in your beer-stained wife-beater and tell dem-thar niggers, spics and homos wat'frr.

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    I should be able to freely choose who I can do business with and who is on my property.
    But you can't. Even if I never get my way, you still can't. Deal with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    And if society is truly against my beliefs, then my business will not last.
    Sure it will. All you have to do is evolve and not discriminate.

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    I'm not an extremist in this sense, as some libertarians are. I understand that there is a point in which government involvement is necessary to uphold the fabric of our desired society. Ideally not so, but in reality, yes. But I think we've already gone too far and such a legislative move would only take us further.
    The best option is for you to not infringe on my rights in the first place so that no legal action is then required to correct you.

    So here again you're making another post which is not specific to guns. You are making a broad argument that you just want be able to do whatever you want. It doesn't sound like you actually have an opinion on this specific issue, guns at work.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-08-12 at 02:36 PM.

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The best option is for you to not infringe on my rights in the first place so that no legal action is then required to correct you.
    This is the crux of the issue I'm having with your argument. You're begging the question by saying "don't infringe on my rights" when the question is whether or not there is an infringement.

    The question is asking if private property rights hold sway over gun owner rights. Which, given the OP's example, I find equivalent to asking: Is it an infringement on the gun owner's right to bear arms when a property owner refuses them entry into their private business if they legally have a concealed weapon?

    What we really need to answer is what is an infringement of their rights? Am I forcing them to not bear arms? Of course not, because I am not forcing them to do business with me. So there is no infringement of rights.

    You want legal gun concealers to be added to the protection of the Civil Rights Act?? So it would now read: "...discrimination on the ground of race, color, religion, national origin, or those who legally conceal firearms shall not occur..." One of these things is not like the others - one of these things DON'T belong.

  7. #207
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Out of my entire argument, that's all you got?

    Try it sometime. Good luck
    Let's be honest, jerry, your argument is bunk.

  8. #208
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertzz View Post
    This is the crux of the issue I'm having with your argument. You're begging the question by saying "don't infringe on my rights" when the question is whether or not there is an infringement.

    The question is asking if private property rights hold sway over gun owner rights. Which, given the OP's example, I find equivalent to asking: Is it an infringement on the gun owner's right to bear arms when a property owner refuses them entry into their private business if they legally have a concealed weapon?

    What we really need to answer is what is an infringement of their rights? Am I forcing them to not bear arms? Of course not, because I am not forcing them to do business with me. So there is no infringement of rights.

    You want legal gun concealers to be added to the protection of the Civil Rights Act?? So it would now read: "...discrimination on the ground of race, color, religion, national origin, or those who legally conceal firearms shall not occur..." One of these things is not like the others - one of these things DON'T belong.
    I've already answered these questions in detail, with working links to my source material. Why are you regurgitating the same thing over and over?

    Yes, when you open a business or hire me I have a right to be there. Yes, you are infringing on my rights when you deny me otherwise lawful access to your business as a customer or my place of employment.

    You do these things for no reason other than personal preference.

    As per SCOTUS, as sourced, rights take precedence over preference every time.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-08-12 at 03:39 PM.

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Let's be honest, jerry, your argument is bunk.
    Insults from loosertarians are in fact compliments, so thank you

    Good luck on the 'legalize all hard drugs' thing.

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Insults from loosertarians are in fact compliments, so thank you

    Good luck on the 'legalize all hard drugs' thing.
    hey - HEY! I know we disagree and all, but do NOT insult us with that term "loosertarians". That's childish and immature. We are not loose. You may call us 'losertarians' however, if you should desire.

    And I agree, rights do take precedence of preference. And I'm discussing property rights... we're not discussing preferences. You did not yet address my point that I am NOT infringing on your right to bear arms because I am not forcing you to do business with me. This is the crux of my argument which you have avoided entirely. I may have missed it in my re-read just now... but I really don't see where you think you've addressed it. I think it's just a difference in opinion, truly, that cannot be resolved. But if there is something more to your argument than "I want to change the Civil Rights Act", I do want to hear it.

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