View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #181
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Regardless landowners still have rights that go much further than wants. As I mentioned before I could fire anyone that I want for no good reason to remove them from my property. If I feel that I need to do so I will gladly go to court afterwards.



    You have noticed the obvious result of your movements laws. That an employer will just drum up something to fire the employer over. You can now claim that it would be illegal to do so, but companies bust unions the same way all the time. Sure they paid fines before it was over. But by the time their done there are no longer unions on their property. The local mine did it by shutting the mine down for a while then hiring non union employees exclusively. All any business would need to do is determine that guns pose a unnecessary risk on the job site. Gun powder and flying projectiles are a danger and can be proven to be a danger. Under OSHA rules about volatile substances gun powder can be legally banned from the work place with little effort. The end result may be no workplace allowing guns on the property if you guys push too hard the lawyers will find a way. Thats what they get paid for.


    Again some employers are willing to go to court to fight for the right to make decisions own their own. SO gun owners should be prepared to end up in court when they push other people around while hiding behind specialty laws.



    My point is that an employer may very well jump to the cease employment conclusion well ahead of what they would have done had the employee not had a gun on the property.


    As to for the criminals acquiring guns elsewhere it does not apply at all to anything that I have said. The presumption all along has been that the employee legally owns a gun so I have no idea why you are going on about banning guns. I do not support banning gun ownership, if I did i would be banning my own guns.



    Actually if you read the links that I gave you OSHA says that it is the responsibility of the business owner to watch for signs and identify employees that may pose a danger of violence. OSHA feels that it is unnecessary to ban guns in the work place since the employer already retains the right to do so. But OSHA says that if that right of the employer changes then OSHA will also change their rules too.



    No one said that carrying a gun is a violent act. What I was referring to was that regardless of a gun or not right now an employer can make a judgement call according to OSHA. A specialty law removes the ability legally to make judgement calls if the employee is a legal gun carrier.



    You need to realize that the laws that your movement wants to be enforced do have gray areas. And all aspects need to be looked at not just the ones that you think that you can argue.



    fear bwhahaha I laugh in your face. No I am not making an assumption without evidence I am exercising my rights as expressed by OSHA. But your laws will take those rights away.



    Your desire to walk around with a gun on private property is a want. You would have to present evidence that says that a gun is necessary for either your protection or the protection of others. If you store your gun in your vehicle off the property you still retain the same rights that you want this specialty laws to cover. Which is why I made reference to you not actually losing legal possession of your gun. If the argument is for protection from at to work then it is your responsibility to find a location other than on the property that does not allow you to store guns there. I also pointed out to you that the states that do have parking lot laws allow employers to still ban guns in vehicles on their property under certain conditions like a gated parking lot or they may make the gun owners park in a separate parking lot providing that it isnt too far away. Which shows that even under the specialty laws you are still expressing a want and not a strict scrutiny. And since these laws have these loops holes for the employer it shows that it will be nearly impossible to ever make employers allow guns inside the actual work place.


    Ill say it again I would rather see effort going toward stopping the Government from imposing more laws that limit the rights of gun owners and private property owners. Legally speaking the laws that your movement is fighting for actually promotes more Federal intrusion on the States and all Americans. Less laws not more laws!
    Mines are a good example of a workplace which has a demonstrable 'need' to ban firearms. Other good examples would include auto-body and machine shops, mental institutions, propane refueling stations, and any place with above ground refueling stations for equipment. A better example for you to use might be a retail clothing store, as there are no inherent dangers in that line of business.

    I'm already willing to go to court, so if the employer is also, great, he'll answer the summons.

    My right to carry a gun is a specifically enumerated right, not merely a preference; and a demonstrable 'need' exists for me to carry a gun. Unless you can demonstrate a 'need' to ban guns, constitutional rights supersede preferences every day.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-07-12 at 11:22 PM.

  2. #182
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Mines are a good example of a workplace which has a demonstrable 'need' to ban firearms. Other good examples would include auto-body and machine shops, mental institutions, propane refueling stations, and any place with above ground refueling stations for equipment. A better example for you to use might be a retail clothing store, as there are no inherent dangers in that line of business.

    I'm already willing to go to court, so if the employer is also, great, he'll answer the summons.

    My right to carry a gun is a specifically enumerated right, not merely a preference; and a demonstrable 'need' exists for me to carry a gun. Unless you can demonstrate a 'need' to ban guns, constitutional rights supersede preferences every day.
    Then why do you need a special law if the Constitution enumerated your right to carry a gun onto Private property?

  3. #183
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Then why do you need a special law if the Constitution enumerated your right to carry a gun onto Private property?
    Why do we need special laws for any other type of discrimination? Why do we have a list of Federally Protected Classes and a host of anti-discrimination legal code?

    Same answer.

    To spell out exactly what is and what is not acceptable, and specify what exceptions to the rule exist, so that everyone is on the same page and playing by the same rules.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-08-12 at 12:02 AM.

  4. #184
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Why do we need special laws for any other type of discrimination? Why do we have a list of Federally Protected Classes and a host of anti-discrimination legal code?

    Same answer.

    To spell out exactly what is and what is not acceptable, and specify what exceptions to the rule exist, so that everyone is on the same page and playing by the same rules.
    You are barking up the wrong tree since I oppose Federally protected classes. Laws should not need to be specialized to protect certain sections of society when we already have the Bill of Rights that equally protect every American. To be clear I also do not support affirmative action nor do I think that it is necessary to tell the government what color of skin I appear to have.

    The 14th Amendment covers discrimination under the Equal Protection Clause. You as a gun owner equally share the same protections that the rest of us enjoy as gun owner and not gun owners.

    The fact is that no one is banning you as a person protested under the 14th Amendment. What is actually happening is that your gun is being banned not yourself. That distinction makes a big legal difference. Some states have made laws now that allow you to bring a gun into a parking lot if you wish. But the same laws still make it possible to just put up a gate and disallow you from having a gun in the parking lot. Are you aware of that?

    Such provisions set a legal example that shows that even with a special law gun owners still do not have the Constitutional right to tell private property owners what they have to allow on their property.


    Now lets see where we are:

    1. The new laws in some states still respect that the private property owners have the right to refuse any guns within the work place. And they can even still refuse to let you have a gun in your car in a gated or secured parking lot. They can also make you park in a special parking lot away from other employees.

    2. Even the right to bear arms is enumerated in the Constitution the laws protecting private property owners is still above that of gun owners when a gun wants to bring his gun on someones private property. This makes your assertion that the rights of the gun owner wins in valid and wrong.

    3. After looking at the facts it is clear that gun owner do not have the right to carry guns on private property without making special laws that circumnavigate the Constitutional rights of the Private property owner. Making it clear that your movements goal of forcing private property owners to allow you to carry a gun on their property is legally impossible without further changing the Constitutional rights of Private property owners.

    The NRA's attack on Private property owner Constitutionally protected rights will not go unnoticed. If they get enough states or power to attempt to make special federal laws the public will revolt against such intrusion on our Constitutional rights. Unfortunately the most vocal will be the Leftist gun control nuts. All what you and the NRA are doing is playing directly into the Leftists hand by attacking already established Constitutional rights you make all of us gun owners look bad. And because of such corrupted attempt's to change the Constitution are being used, it will just make it easier for the gun control nuts to convince some Americans that the NRA and thus gun owners must be stopped. It appears more than anything that those supporting guns in the work place are tools for the Leftist gun control nuts.

  5. #185
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    And because of such corrupted attempt's to change the Constitution are being used, it will just make it easier for the gun control nuts to convince some Americans that the NRA and thus gun owners must be stopped. It appears more than anything that those supporting guns in the work place are tools for the Leftist gun control nuts.
    Amen, brother! People need to realize that guns are great, but you can't put guns above liberty.

  6. #186
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Interesting, do all these laws apply when it comes to discriminating against various minority groups? Can I refuse entry to all Asians in my restaurants or not let them use my bathroom? Can I make Caucasians drink from certain water fountains in my museum or private school? Can I refuse Black people the right to park in my parking lot period.

    I believe the legal answer is NO. So why can anyone discriminate against someone acting withing his or her 2nd amendment rights.

    Do you still have the right to remain silent if arrested in my building?
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  7. #187
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    Interesting, do all these laws apply when it comes to discriminating against various minority groups? Can I refuse entry to all Asians in my restaurants or not let them use my bathroom? Can I make Caucasians drink from certain water fountains in my museum or private school? Can I refuse Black people the right to park in my parking lot period.

    I believe the legal answer is NO. So why can anyone discriminate against someone acting withing his or her 2nd amendment rights.
    What is discriminatory about banning an object from Private property? Do you use the gun for recognized religious proposes?

    Do you still have the right to remain silent if arrested in my building?
    If you are arrested you are in custody of law enforcement there s no reason that your right to remain silent should compromised.

    Why should any business owner be forced to allow a person to enter their private property? You point to discrimination but is it legally discrimination?


    Local antidiscrimination laws have been used to deny funding to groups that bar members because of their sexual orientation. This was the case after the Supreme Court issued its ruling in Boys Scouts of America v. Dale, 530 U.S. 640, 120 S.Ct. 2446, 147 L.Ed.2d 554 (2000). The Court held that the Boy Scouts of America (BSA), as a private organization, had the constitutional right to bar homosexual troop leaders and members from its ranks. The Boy Scouts hailed this as an important victory, but many corporations and local governments were angered by the decision.
    discrimination legal definition of discrimination. discrimination synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

    Or what calls do gun owners belong too? The answer would obviously be all classes. So it would be hard to group gun owners as a class being discriminated against. I think it would be best to assume that all Americans are gun owners whether they actually are or not. I am a gun owner an advocate of gun ownership to be sure, but I am also a business owner. I think that private property rights are the trump card since the gun owner legally is an invitee on the private property as an employee or not. Again the gun owner is not being told to leave the property just to store his gun off of the property at the property owners request. The request is that the gun is not allowed not the person carrying the gun so they are still invited onto the property.

  8. #188
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    What is discriminatory about banning an object from Private property? Do you use the gun for recognized religious proposes?

    If you are arrested you are in custody of law enforcement there s no reason that your right to remain silent should compromised.

    Why should any business owner be forced to allow a person to enter their private property? You point to discrimination but is it legally discrimination?


    Local antidiscrimination laws have been used to deny funding to groups that bar members because of their sexual orientation. This was the case after the Supreme Court issued its ruling in Boys Scouts of America v. Dale, 530 U.S. 640, 120 S.Ct. 2446, 147 L.Ed.2d 554 (2000). The Court held that the Boy Scouts of America (BSA), as a private organization, had the constitutional right to bar homosexual troop leaders and members from its ranks. The Boy Scouts hailed this as an important victory, but many corporations and local governments were angered by the decision.
    discrimination legal definition of discrimination. discrimination synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

    Or what calls do gun owners belong too? The answer would obviously be all classes. So it would be hard to group gun owners as a class being discriminated against. I think it would be best to assume that all Americans are gun owners whether they actually are or not. I am a gun owner an advocate of gun ownership to be sure, but I am also a business owner. I think that private property rights are the trump card since the gun owner legally is an invitee on the private property as an employee or not. Again the gun owner is not being told to leave the property just to store his gun off of the property at the property owners request. The request is that the gun is not allowed not the person carrying the gun so they are still invited onto the property.
    The 2nd Amendment places no restrictions as to where I can or cannot carry my firearm. Various legal jurisdictions have placed guidelines and laws concerning such but none come from the Supreme Court directly. A property owner infringing on my rights because I chose to carry is discrimination.

    Oh yes, you certainly should retain your legal rights, they are protected under the constitution. But your trying to circumvent that. What if your caught shoplifting or suspected of shoplifting and I hold you against your will until a judge and whoever the minimum entourage would be. The hell with the 4th, 6th,7th,8th and any other applicable Amendment. It's my establishment or home. According to you I can suspend whichever amendment I choose. So I choose to allow your speedy trial and execution or permanent imprisonment in my basement or hey lets make you an indentured servant.

    You can't pick and choose which amendments to nullify when you find it appropriate. You can't. The Supreme Court can and Congress can amendment the constitution but until then property rights are a very small fish should it try and swim with any of the Amendments.
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  9. #189
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne375 View Post
    The 2nd Amendment places no restrictions as to where I can or cannot carry my firearm. Various legal jurisdictions have placed guidelines and laws concerning such but none come from the Supreme Court directly. A property owner infringing on my rights because I chose to carry is discrimination.

    Oh yes, you certainly should retain your legal rights, they are protected under the constitution. But your trying to circumvent that. What if your caught shoplifting or suspected of shoplifting and I hold you against your will until a judge and whoever the minimum entourage would be. The hell with the 4th, 6th,7th,8th and any other applicable Amendment. It's my establishment or home. According to you I can suspend whichever amendment I choose. So I choose to allow your speedy trial and execution or permanent imprisonment in my basement or hey lets make you an indentured servant.

    You can't pick and choose which amendments to nullify when you find it appropriate. You can't. The Supreme Court can and Congress can amendment the constitution but until then property rights are a very small fish should it try and swim with any of the Amendments.



    The reason for bearing arms is to stop other people from trampling on your liberties. And the NRA in this case is trying to trample on the rights of all landowners. Gun rights are no more important than private property rights. In fact gun rights are really just private property rights. A gun is the owners private property. What the NRA is saying is that the person carrying the gun has more rights than the person the owns the land that the gun owner is standing on. What you are saying that I cannot tell you what to do with your private property but you can tell me what I can do with my private property.

    I am not standing on the gun owners private property he is carrying his private property. And while he is carry his property he is standing the land that I own and that I am responsible for legally and rightfully. Land cannot move but guns can so logically the non moving private property is the private property that must stay is=n all casses while the gun can sinply be moved off of the larger private property. But you guys are insisting since my private property cannot be moved than to hell with my rights and so special laws need to be made to end the liberties that owning private property backed by the Constitution.

    I am not against guns as I have said I am an gun owner and a strong supporter of the right to bear arms. I also own a business and do not want the NRA destroying my liberties in the name of the 2nd Amendment it is insulting IMO and under handed and the wrong direction for this country. And by no means is this action helping Americans retain our 2nd Amendment rights. In fact it will open the door for more not less Federal regulations of firearms.

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    The reason for bearing arms is to stop other people from trampling on your liberties. And the NRA in this case is trying to trample on the rights of all landowners. Gun rights are no more important than private property rights. In fact gun rights are really just private property rights. A gun is the owners private property. What the NRA is saying is that the person carrying the gun has more rights than the person the owns the land that the gun owner is standing on. What you are saying that I cannot tell you what to do with your private property but you can tell me what I can do with my private property.

    I am not standing on the gun owners private property he is carrying his private property. And while he is carry his property he is standing the land that I own and that I am responsible for legally and rightfully. Land cannot move but guns can so logically the non moving private property is the private property that must stay is=n all casses while the gun can sinply be moved off of the larger private property. But you guys are insisting since my private property cannot be moved than to hell with my rights and so special laws need to be made to end the liberties that owning private property backed by the Constitution.

    I am not against guns as I have said I am an gun owner and a strong supporter of the right to bear arms. I also own a business and do not want the NRA destroying my liberties in the name of the 2nd Amendment it is insulting IMO and under handed and the wrong direction for this country. And by no means is this action helping Americans retain our 2nd Amendment rights. In fact it will open the door for more not less Federal regulations of firearms.
    You make difficult points to debate. Bravo for you

    It's a legal issue not a rational issue and were talking constitutional law. If someone can arbitrarily nullify any amendment they can any other. What if your town decided that since the town is public property it belonged to everyone that same rational counted? They could prohibit firearms period. No one would argue that you cannot decide what you want on your private property. You can make anyone leave or call the police at will an no one can scream discrimination. In a commercially zoned semi-public venue people can and easily do scream discrimination and often for the right reasons. Did you know it's no coincidence the Amendments are placed in that order. Madison (or whoever decided on the thing) put the second amendment second for a reason and the Supreme Court recognizes this. The right to bear arms is second only to the First which is Freedom of Speech. No coincidence.

    The trouble is no other law will trump an amendment until that amendment is changed or its legal meaning altered. This could have happened not long ago with District of Columbia v. Heller. The DC gun ban challenge so it could change. And if it did, I wouldn't be upset about it. I just recognize the law as it is currently written.

    Our rights are falling like dominoes in this country already. Look at the power government agencies are gaining to let them circumvent the Bill of Rights. I understand these are designed to protect Americans but the military can detain you or me indefinitely without bail or trial or asking any Judge or legal authority 'May I'. Snatch you off the street and send you to some undisclosed location because you accidently ended up on the wrong web page one day. Its getting crazy.

    Anyway you have good points but the law needs changing from the powers that be to alter things as they sit. At least in my opinion.
    If there's a new way, I'll be the first in line.. But, it better work this time. - Dave Mustaine
    It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word. - Andrew Jackson
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