View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #131
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Guns don't make people afraid - people make people afraid. So, no, it wouldn't be an irrational fear of the gun you're carrying - it would be a very rational fear of a person so paranoid they feel a need to be armed at all times, even on someone else's property without giving them notice or option.
    I like it when folks say I'm paranoid because I carry a gun.....I mean, think about it...I have a gun, so why would I be afraid of anything?

    Maybe you've never needed to pull your gun, but I have, a few times.

    My pistol in a holster isn't going to suddenly jump out and shoot anyone, so your fear is irrational. It is, in fact, a phobia you should probably see someone about.

    Hoplophobia Analysis
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-04-12 at 08:52 AM.

  2. #132
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I like it when folks say I'm paranoid because I carry a gun.....I mean, think about it...I have a gun, so why would I be afraid of anything?

    Maybe you've never needed to pull your gun, but I have, a few times.

    My pistol in a holster isn't going to suddenly jump out and shoot anyone, so your fear is irrational. It is, in fact, a phobia you should probably see someone about.

    Hoplophobia Analysis
    You set up a very specific situation and then claim you would carry even if it meant telling the owner "go screw yourself" or "sue me!". LOL! Paranoid, indeed, that you would go so far to hang onto that power instead of just moving on. But, hey, I could be wrong, it may not be paranoia. There are other illnesses that could also cause that kind of behavior. You might want to check with your doctor to be on the safe side.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 08-04-12 at 12:53 PM.
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  3. #133
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    The NRA has gone after a Tennessee Congresswoman due to her lack of support for a law stating that businesses should not be able to restrict employees from having a weapon on their property ie the employee having a weapon in their vehicle while it is parked in the parking lot. When I heard this story I initially wanted to come home and research it. However, I thought it would be more fun to put it up to debate. So what say you? Private property rights or the 2nd amendment? Which one holds sway in this case?
    NRA hits Republican roadblocks - Washington Times
    Do what I did, don't tell the company and hide the gun.
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  4. #134
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Foley View Post
    Do what I did, don't tell the company and hide the gun.
    Like most political issues in the workplace, a gun is best left undiscussed.

  5. #135
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    When you hired me as a contractor, yes, I actually do have a right to be there. You gave me that right when you signed on the bottom line. You can't hit we with trespassing while I'm performing my job. You can't execute Castle Doctrine while I'm performing my job. In some cases you can't even fire me (exposed utility lines posing a 'Public Hazard' or the city needs your job finished by a deadline and replacing me would take to long). Should I be kicked off 'just because' you have an irrational fear of firearms, I can sue for the value of the contract, a lawsuit which will damage you far more than my pistol.

    When you sign any kind of contract, you are giving up some level of sovereignty.
    As a contractor you are subject to the contract. if the contract says no guns you follow the contract or do not enter the contract nor the property.



    "Gun safety dictates" huh? I can't wait to see your link on that one....I'll go ahead and open my pre-written response file because I already know what I'm going to post in response to any link you could possibly give...
    And if you think that shooting in a large crowd is safe then perhaps the gun control nuts have a case? Regardless of how you feel about it gun regulations are affected by public opinion. if you go around saying that it is ok to shoot into a crowd of innocent people you are doing more harm to the 2nd Amendment and our fight to keep the 2nd Amendment than any Leftist politician. So do us all a favor and learn gun safety before opening your mouth any further. Because if you shoot into a crowd and someone in the crowd has a gun also you just may get your ass shot.

  6. #136
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    As a contractor you are subject to the contract. if the contract says no guns you follow the contract or do not enter the contract nor the property.
    I have yet to see the topic of weapons even enter the discussion, let alone enter the contract. It's kind of silly to tell me I can't have a snub .38, but that big ass nail gun and all those saws are ok. Many regular carpentry tools are regarded as 'firearms' by my local code, to include ordinary nail guns and 'powder actuated' nail guns.

    I've seen a few guys even carry bear mace openly on their tool belt. Oh yes, you guessed it right, animals are the big threat I'm packing heat over, not humans. Wild dogs are an occasional problem in my city, and bears and mountain lions looking for a tasty treat are the concern out in the hills. I've had to pul my weapon only a couple times against a human, but I originally started carrying because of animals.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    And if you think that shooting in a large crowd is safe then perhaps the gun control nuts have a case? Regardless of how you feel about it gun regulations are affected by public opinion. if you go around saying that it is ok to shoot into a crowd of innocent people you are doing more harm to the 2nd Amendment and our fight to keep the 2nd Amendment than any Leftist politician. So do us all a favor and learn gun safety before opening your mouth any further. Because if you shoot into a crowd and someone in the crowd has a gun also you just may get your ass shot.
    No one's talking about shooting into a crowed. What the hell are you even talking about?

    I've been carrying a loaded belt-fed weapon around and through several populated arias for this last year, so you need to check yourself.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-04-12 at 04:16 PM.

  7. #137
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I have yet to see the topic of weapons even enter the discussion, let alone enter the contract. It's kind of silly to tell me I can't have a snub .38, but that big ass nail gun and all those saws are ok. Many regular carpentry tools are regarded as 'firearms' by my local code, to include ordinary nail guns and 'powder actuated' nail guns.

    I've seen a few guys even carry bear mace openly on their tool belt. Oh yes, you guessed it right, animals are the big threat I'm packing heat over, not humans. Wild dogs are an occasional problem in my city, and bears and mountain lions looking for a tasty treat are the concern out in the hills. I've had to pul my weapon only a couple times against a human, but I originally started carrying because of animals.
    Look I never said that you cannot take a gun where you want unless you are on property that the property owner does not want a gun being carried by a guest on the property. You should stop justifying we you carry a weapon at all. The reason is that in places like Cuba you must justify the reason why you want a firearm. When you start making justifications you open the door for the anti gun nuts to bring in justification into the conversation. Instead just assert that you want to carry a weapon because it is your right under the Constitution of the United States of America.

    Owning and bearing arms is protected by the Constitution. Private property is also protected by the Constitution. When you want to carry your gun on someone elses property they have the right to tell you that you cannot come on their property with that gun just as they have the right to bar you from entering their property gun or not. Any agreement that you entered into with the property owner is between you and the property owner. The key is that the property owner gets the final say so on what happens on their own property. The guest is only in the position of pointing to an agreement with the property owner not being in the position to tell the property owner what to do.


    James Madison
    "Government is instituted to protect property of every sort .... This being the end of government, that is NOT a just government,... nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has ... is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest."

    Gun owners are trying to force property owners on what can and cannot be on their property. It does not matter at all that we are talking about guns. Once you take away the property owners right to decide what happens on their property what comes next? Look at all of the laws that us property owners must endure as it is. Now you want me to be forced to allow some asshole with a gun to come on to my property? Seriously I do allow people with guns on my property. I have some clients that pack at all times but these people I trust. But I do not trust everyone and I reserve the right to decide who I trust with a gun on my property and who I do not trust with a gun on my property. And if need be I will you my 2nd Advisement right to enforce my property rights. Because obviously if a man tells you that you are not allowed on their property for any reason and you refuse that command then you pose a risk to the property owner. You are a person with a gun refusing to obey the legal commend of a legal property owner. If that doesnt scream danger to you then I do not know what does.



    No one's talking about shooting into a crowed. What the hell are you even talking about?

    I've been carrying a loaded belt-fed weapon around and through several populated arias for this last year, so you need to check yourself.
    What am I talking about? Jeez I wrote it down what do you want? Here is what I said in context: "As gun safety dictates high intensity populated locations are not a good place to discharge a weapon. Inside a poorly lit movie theater jam packed full of people would mean that if a citizen was carrying a gun that that person would have been hard pressed to find a clear target."

    A hand gun which would be the only logical firearm that someone would be carrying inside a movie theater (outside of the psycho with the armor and weapons that he had) is really only good for close range in that situation. I suggested a knife since you would be more likely to stab the guy a close quarters rather than pull your weapon hit the safety, chamber a round and fire. Not saying that a hand gun is worse than a knife though, that would be silly. But I think that in subduing the shooter a knife in that case could have worked without risking bystanders.

    And to be sure I never said anything about carrying a weapon in populated areas as if the mere carrying is dangerous. What I asserted was that shooting in a dark theater jam packed full of Batman fans would not be safe even though there was a gun man doing the same thing. Yes you have to do something to stop the psycho but just having a gun does not mean that one will be successful.


    In other words this my property get the hell off it and buy your own damn property quit trying to dictate what i do on my own property. You are starting to whine like a Socialist wanting to make private property a collective state. hands off!
    Last edited by FreedomFromAll; 08-04-12 at 07:42 PM.

  8. #138
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Look I never said that you cannot take a gun where you want unless you are on property that the property owner does not want a gun being carried by a guest on the property.
    An employee is not a guest, she is an employee, so again you are changing the goal posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    You should stop justifying we you carry a weapon at all.
    Not likely to ever happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    The reason is that in places like Cuba...
    No one's talking about Cuba.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Owning and bearing arms is protected by the Constitution. Private property is also protected by the Constitution. When you want to carry your gun on someone elses property they have the right to tell you that you cannot come on their property with that gun just as they have the right to bar you from entering their property gun or not.
    I'm carrying the gun within my own personal space. If your camp ground is your privat property, you can't tell me not to keep a gun in my camper, because my camper and the lot you rent to me is my personal space. You even have to give me 24Hr notice to enter the lot, and you have to have a good reason, a 'need'. My car is my personal space, that's why you can't stop me from keeping a gun in my car. The aria imediatly surrounding my body is also my personal space, and is protected by my right to privacy. You have no right to regulate my personal space any more than I have a right to tell you how to run your business.

    Now if I were to allow that firearm to leave my personal space while on your property, than I have a problem. The gun has to remain within my personal space for it to remain protected by my right to privacy and my right to be free from discrimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    The key is that the property owner gets the final say so on what happens on their own property.
    That's where you're consistently wrong. The property owner does not have the final say. In my line of work, the various inspectors and ultimately the city has the final say. As the owner you can want X, Y and Z all day long, but you have to follow the law. Your property has to be zoned correctly, and you can be turned down by the zoning comity. Your plans have to be drawn by a licensed architect or otherwise be approved by the city prior to your build. You have to apply for a permit and meet the requirements thereof. You have to pass various inspections. You have to abide by labor laws, public accommodation, any special industry-specific regulation, etc.

    You don't have the final say. The scope of your liberty is narrower than you think.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    The guest is only in the position of pointing to an agreement with the property owner not being in the position to tell the property owner what to do.
    My carrying a gun is not telling the property owner to do anything. However, as it happens I do otherwise have to tell property owners what to do in the normal coarse of my job. It can be something as simple as the minimum required space between a fence and the building; the home owner wants it 1 foot away, but if the local code says otherwise, I tell that to the owner (I keep a couple code books in my car so I can point to the exact regulation and let them read it for themselves).

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    James Madison
    "Government is instituted to protect property of every sort .... This being the end of government, that is NOT a just government,... nor is property secure under it, where the property which a man has ... is violated by arbitrary seizures of one class of citizens for the service of the rest."
    That's precisely what I'm telling you. My car and my personal space are my property, not yours. You disrespect private property rights when you try to tell me I can't have a gun within it. That's exactly like telling me I can't have a gun in my car or home. Exactly the same in every way.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Gun owners are trying to force property owners on what can and cannot be on their property.
    Property owners are trying to tell gun owners what can and cannot be don on their property.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Once you take away the property owners right to decide what happens on their property what comes next?
    Once you take away a person's right to be secure in their own personal space, what's next? Their car? Their home? Their land? You undermine private property rights when you support invading a person's personal space, because that's the whole basis for you have any rights to your car, home or land at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Look at all of the laws that us property owners must endure as it is. Now you want me to be forced to allow some asshole with a gun to come on to my property?
    Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Seriously I do allow people with guns on my property. I have some clients that pack at all times but these people I trust. But I do not trust everyone and I reserve the right to decide who I trust with a gun on my property and who I do not trust with a gun on my property.
    If you don't trust them then they shouldn't be on your property at all, gun or not. If you can't trust the person then why would you allow them around your family with power tools? Why would you sleep under a roof they made? Why would plug anything into electrical wiring the ran? Why would you trust a security system they installed? Why would you give them keys to you home and allow them to work while you're gon?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    And if need be I will you my 2nd Advisement right to enforce my property rights. Because obviously if a man tells you that you are not allowed on their property for any reason and you refuse that command then you pose a risk to the property owner. You are a person with a gun refusing to obey the legal commend of a legal property owner. If that doesnt scream danger to you then I do not know what does.
    Then you don't know what does.

    You should know that in order to execute castle doctrine, I have to otherwise be committing a felony. Trespassing alone isn't enough. So if you hire me, learn I have a gun and tell me to leave, and instead of leaving immediately I start packing up my tools, or I sit at my truck in your driveway and call my boss, you can't do a damn thing except call the police, which I've probably already don myself because you're a raging client who hired me and then pulled a gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    What am I talking about? Jeez I wrote it down what do you want? Here is what I said in context: "As gun safety dictates high intensity populated locations are not a good place to discharge a weapon. Inside a poorly lit movie theater jam packed full of people would mean that if a citizen was carrying a gun that that person would have been hard pressed to find a clear target."
    I'm still looking forward to your link on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    A hand gun which would be the only logical firearm that someone would be carrying inside a movie theater (outside of the psycho with the armor and weapons that he had) is really only good for close range in that situation. I suggested a knife since you would be more likely to stab the guy a close quarters rather than pull your weapon hit the safety, chamber a round and fire. Not saying that a hand gun is worse than a knife though, that would be silly. But I think that in subduing the shooter a knife in that case could have worked without risking bystanders.
    If I'm going to select a melee weapon then I'll just use the hammer or box-cutter on my tool belt.

    A risk to bystanders is a concern every gun owner thinks about, and is why there are so many different types of bullets. I load Hydra-Shock hollow points (the absolute best round to guard against over penetration) in my .38 for just that reason. I have a Crimson Trace laser dot in the hand grip. I practice different shooting situations at the range. I do more to be a safe shooter then you do to be a safe driver.

    When I get home I'm trading in my .38 for a similar pistol which is chambered .357magnum. I have 5 different loads for this pistol depending on what I'm doing. I have a .38 target load and a .357 target load for practice. I have a .38 hydra-shock hollow point for carrying in town. I have a .357mag bird-shot round for home defense over night, and I have a .357mag flat-tip round for anti-bear/mountain-lion use while out in the hills.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    And to be sure I never said anything about carrying a weapon in populated areas as if the mere carrying is dangerous. What I asserted was that shooting in a dark theater jam packed full of Batman fans would not be safe even though there was a gun man doing the same thing. Yes you have to do something to stop the psycho but just having a gun does not mean that one will be successful.
    Quite right, just having the gun isn't enough. That's why I bring military and civilian training with me, also.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    In other words this my property get the hell off it and buy your own damn property quit trying to dictate what i do on my own property. You are starting to whine like a Socialist wanting to make private property a collective state. hands off!
    One day I hope you can learn to respect private property rights and stop trying to tell people what to do with their personal space.

    For the causal reader:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_space
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-05-12 at 03:57 AM.

  9. #139
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    An employee is not a guest, she is an employee, so again you are changing the goal posts.
    So now a an employee has rights to your property? Anyone who is not the owner of the property is a guest on the property even if they have permission to be there.



    Not likely to ever happen.



    No one's talking about Cuba.
    Turning a blind eye to what the gun control nuts are planning is not logical.



    I'm carrying the gun within my own personal space. If your camp ground is your privat property, you can't tell me not to keep a gun in my camper, because my camper and the lot you rent to me is my personal space. You even have to give me 24Hr notice to enter the lot, and you have to have a good reason, a 'need'. My car is my personal space, that's why you can't stop me from keeping a gun in my car. The aria imediatly surrounding my body is also my personal space, and is protected by my right to privacy. You have no right to regulate my personal space any more than I have a right to tell you how to run your business.
    Yea try carrying a gun into a court house and tell me what the laws say on your personal space.

    Now if I were to allow that firearm to leave my personal space while on your property, than I have a problem. The gun has to remain within my personal space for it to remain protected by my right to privacy and my right to be free from discrimination.
    As the laws stand today you cannot just waltz into anywhere with a gun. In fact as I posted already in the state of New Mexico I can require you to not have a gun in your possession if I feel that I do not want you to have a gun on my property or in my place of business.



    That's where you're consistently wrong. The property owner does not have the final say. In my line of work, the various inspectors and ultimately the city has the final say. As the owner you can want X, Y and Z all day long, but you have to follow the law. Your property has to be zoned correctly, and you can be turned down by the zoning comity. Your plans have to be drawn by a licensed architect or otherwise be approved by the city prior to your build. You have to apply for a permit and meet the requirements thereof. You have to pass various inspections. You have to abide by labor laws, public accommodation, any special industry-specific regulation, etc.

    You don't have the final say. The scope of your liberty is narrower than you think.
    Well that is ridiculous considering that I already acknowledged that private property rights have been under attack and that us property owners keep losing our rights to people like you that wish to tell us what we can or can not do on our own property.

    To be clear I just asserted that your movement to make it law that you can carry a gun private property without the permission of the owner is an attack on property rights.



    My carrying a gun is not telling the property owner to do anything. However, as it happens I do otherwise have to tell property owners what to do in the normal coarse of my job. It can be something as simple as the minimum required space between a fence and the building; the home owner wants it 1 foot away, but if the local code says otherwise, I tell that to the owner (I keep a couple code books in my car so I can point to the exact regulation and let them read it for themselves).
    Not all gun owners are responsible Americans. And I really do not care what you do for a living it has nothing to do with anything related to carrying a gun on private property. Now if you were a cop that would make a difference but you are not a cop.


    That's precisely what I'm telling you. My car and my personal space are my property, not yours. You disrespect private property rights when you try to tell me I can't have a gun within it. That's exactly like telling me I can't have a gun in my car or home. Exactly the same in every way.
    No one is taking your private property away from you. So I do not see your point at all. You can chose to leave and keep your private property on you or you leave and store your private property in a safe place. Either way your private property never left your possession.
    And if your gun is in your car in a parking lot unattended I wouldnt tell anyone that it was there in the first place or it just may not be there when you go back to your vehicle. Any car can be broken into and if you start spreading the information around some idiot will try his luck at making some cash off of your mistake. So if no one knows then no one can tell you that you cant have a gun in your vehicle. The owner would need your permission to search your vehicle in the first place. So it really is only a issue for people with big mouths.

    Property owners are trying to tell gun owners what can and cannot be don on their property.
    Property owners are only exercising their Constitutional rights. What they are doing is telling you that you are not welcome to come on the property with an item that is against their rules. A store can legally ban backpacks from the property which is private property of the owner of the back pack.



    Once you take away a person's right to be secure in their own personal space, what's next? Their car? Their home? Their land? You undermine private property rights when you support invading a person's personal space, because that's the whole basis for you have any rights to your car, home or land at all.
    Again no one is invading your personal space at all. You simply do not need to be on the property if you will not follow the legal rules set by the property owner. By you insisting that you can take a gun on the property you have taken away the right of the property owner to secure safety for their private property.


    Yup.
    And that is where you are wrong. By l;aw in every state of the union a business owner can tell any asshole to get the **** off the property. And if they do not cont comply the police will show up and force you to leave because your are being an asshole. And since you are a asshole with a gun everyone will be alarmed and the gun control nuts will be happy since they will have another asshole to tout.



    If you don't trust them then they shouldn't be on your property at all, gun or not. If you can't trust the person then why would you allow them around your family with power tools? Why would you sleep under a roof they made? Why would plug anything into electrical wiring the ran? Why would you trust a security system they installed? Why would you give them keys to you home and allow them to work while you're gon?
    Are you really that naive? In business you do not trust you know. If you do not know you do not trust. Its why we only do things with contracts, a contract means that we know that if you were not trust worthy the we have legal recourse.


    Besides in the situations you are mentioning the trust is already apparent. But we are not just talking a reality centered around your experiences. We are talking about a world where idiots drop loaded guns. And where idiots pull their gun out in a argument. A property owner can chose to either place armed guards everywhere or just ban guns outright in hopes that that would make things safer. The key here is that the property owner has the choice on how they protect their property. In reality a a person carrying a gun poses a certain amount of a threat. I do not have the resources to know immediately that you are not some idiot. You do not have a badge or anything more than papers that can be printed anywhere with anything on it. Perhaps I am stupid and made the wrong decision by not trusting you. But again it was my stupid chpoice to make not yours since it is not your property and the onlt way that you are on my propery is because in invited you there.


    Then you don't know what does.

    You should know that in order to execute castle doctrine, I have to otherwise be committing a felony. Trespassing alone isn't enough. So if you hire me, learn I have a gun and tell me to leave, and instead of leaving immediately I start packing up my tools, or I sit at my truck in your driveway and call my boss, you can't do a damn thing except call the police, which I've probably already don myself because you're a raging client who hired me and then pulled a gun.
    I already pointed out that I as a property owner can tell you to leave and if you dont the police will make you leave.

    I'm still looking forward to your link on that.
    a link for what? To show you that firing in a dark theater packed full of people is stupid?



    If I'm going to select a melee weapon then I'll just use the hammer or box-cutter on my tool belt.
    In a movie theater? Are you on the job or something? Personally if we were going to dream of melee weapons I would choose at least a sword.

    A risk to bystanders is a concern every gun owner thinks about, and is why there are so many different types of bullets. I load Hydra-Shock hollow points (the absolute best round to guard against over penetration) in my .38 for just that reason. I have a Crimson Trace laser dot in the hand grip. I practice different shooting situations at the range. I do more to be a safe shooter then you do to be a safe driver.
    Well ok then Ill sit next to you if you dont mind.

    When I get home I'm trading in my .38 for a similar pistol which is chambered .357magnum. I have 5 different loads for this pistol depending on what I'm doing. I have a .38 target load and a .357 target load for practice. I have a .38 hydra-shock hollow point for carrying in town. I have a .357mag bird-shot round for home defense over night, and I have a .357mag flat-tip round for anti-bear/mountain-lion use while out in the hills.
    Its good to be prepared.


    Quite right, just having the gun isn't enough. That's why I bring military and civilian training with me, also.
    its always wise to have training. I have had the privilege of being in a military family that has always been well armed.



    One day I hope you can learn to respect private property rights and stop trying to tell people what to do with their personal space.

    For the causal reader:
    Personal space - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Again your personal space was invited on the private property of an individual. Out of respect for that individual and gratitude to allow you to be on and or work on that private property it is up to you to honor the properties owners requests. if you feel that you cannot meet that obligation or are offended by the idea it is your right to leave immediately. Asking you to remove a privately owned object before entering a piece of private property has been proven to be legal activity. The mine next door will not allow any employee to enter with a camera. I used to work in a pie factory you could not wear street clothes out on the floor. Headphones are against the rules as well. SO obviously a business can make rules against carrying objects on their property. they just cannot legally look in your vehicle. So dont let them its a non issue really.

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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    So now a an employee has rights to your property? Anyone who is not the owner of the property is a guest on the property even if they have permission to be there.



    Turning a blind eye to what the gun control nuts are planning is not logical.



    Yea try carrying a gun into a court house and tell me what the laws say on your personal space.

    As the laws stand today you cannot just waltz into anywhere with a gun. In fact as I posted already in the state of New Mexico I can require you to not have a gun in your possession if I feel that I do not want you to have a gun on my property or in my place of business.



    Well that is ridiculous considering that I already acknowledged that private property rights have been under attack and that us property owners keep losing our rights to people like you that wish to tell us what we can or can not do on our own property.

    To be clear I just asserted that your movement to make it law that you can carry a gun private property without the permission of the owner is an attack on property rights.



    Not all gun owners are responsible Americans. And I really do not care what you do for a living it has nothing to do with anything related to carrying a gun on private property. Now if you were a cop that would make a difference but you are not a cop.


    No one is taking your private property away from you. So I do not see your point at all. You can chose to leave and keep your private property on you or you leave and store your private property in a safe place. Either way your private property never left your possession.
    And if your gun is in your car in a parking lot unattended I wouldnt tell anyone that it was there in the first place or it just may not be there when you go back to your vehicle. Any car can be broken into and if you start spreading the information around some idiot will try his luck at making some cash off of your mistake. So if no one knows then no one can tell you that you cant have a gun in your vehicle. The owner would need your permission to search your vehicle in the first place. So it really is only a issue for people with big mouths.

    Property owners are only exercising their Constitutional rights. What they are doing is telling you that you are not welcome to come on the property with an item that is against their rules. A store can legally ban backpacks from the property which is private property of the owner of the back pack.



    Again no one is invading your personal space at all. You simply do not need to be on the property if you will not follow the legal rules set by the property owner. By you insisting that you can take a gun on the property you have taken away the right of the property owner to secure safety for their private property.


    And that is where you are wrong. By l;aw in every state of the union a business owner can tell any asshole to get the **** off the property. And if they do not cont comply the police will show up and force you to leave because your are being an asshole. And since you are a asshole with a gun everyone will be alarmed and the gun control nuts will be happy since they will have another asshole to tout.



    Are you really that naive? In business you do not trust you know. If you do not know you do not trust. Its why we only do things with contracts, a contract means that we know that if you were not trust worthy the we have legal recourse.


    Besides in the situations you are mentioning the trust is already apparent. But we are not just talking a reality centered around your experiences. We are talking about a world where idiots drop loaded guns. And where idiots pull their gun out in a argument. A property owner can chose to either place armed guards everywhere or just ban guns outright in hopes that that would make things safer. The key here is that the property owner has the choice on how they protect their property. In reality a a person carrying a gun poses a certain amount of a threat. I do not have the resources to know immediately that you are not some idiot. You do not have a badge or anything more than papers that can be printed anywhere with anything on it. Perhaps I am stupid and made the wrong decision by not trusting you. But again it was my stupid chpoice to make not yours since it is not your property and the onlt way that you are on my propery is because in invited you there.


    I already pointed out that I as a property owner can tell you to leave and if you dont the police will make you leave.

    a link for what? To show you that firing in a dark theater packed full of people is stupid?



    In a movie theater? Are you on the job or something? Personally if we were going to dream of melee weapons I would choose at least a sword.

    Well ok then Ill sit next to you if you dont mind.

    Its good to be prepared.


    its always wise to have training. I have had the privilege of being in a military family that has always been well armed.



    Again your personal space was invited on the private property of an individual. Out of respect for that individual and gratitude to allow you to be on and or work on that private property it is up to you to honor the properties owners requests. if you feel that you cannot meet that obligation or are offended by the idea it is your right to leave immediately. Asking you to remove a privately owned object before entering a piece of private property has been proven to be legal activity. The mine next door will not allow any employee to enter with a camera. I used to work in a pie factory you could not wear street clothes out on the floor. Headphones are against the rules as well. SO obviously a business can make rules against carrying objects on their property. they just cannot legally look in your vehicle. So dont let them its a non issue really.
    Your own body > personal space > home/car > business building > land.

    All property rights are based on the rights of the individual, so when you undermine personal space you undermine your own land rights. Your entire argument is hypocritical.
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-05-12 at 07:45 AM.

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