View Poll Results: Which right holds sway?

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  • 2nd Amendment

    17 21.52%
  • Property Rights

    62 78.48%
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Thread: Which right holds sway?

  1. #101
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Then why did you ask the question?
    Just because you give an answer doesn't mean I'm going to agree with it.

  2. #102
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Then drive so you have a place to store your weapons.
    That's not an option for a lot of people.

  3. #103
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    How is that *not* the Legalistic Fallacy, that it's right because it's legal?

    As for parking lots, what about folks who don't drive their own car to work? Tons of people, especially in larger cities, take some form public transit. A few of us health nuts ride a peddle bike to the shop and already use a company vehicle to go to the work site. If you ban us from carrying at work you are banning us from carrying while going to and from work and any stop in between, too.
    1. As Zyphlin said, put another way, you're not Constitutionally protected from having your rights limited by anything other than government. As a result, my comment is specifically a counterargument to the notion that businesses can't ban guns because it's unconstitutional.

    2. No, you aren't banning someone from carrying while going to and from work and any stop in-between. You're banning people from bringing guns on your property barring the parking lot. People can choose to do with that what they will.

  4. #104
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    But the point I think he's making is you're not constitutionally protected from having your rights discriminated against by INDIVIDUALS, just by the government.

    The reason that race, religion, etc can't be discriminated against by private individuals isn't because of the constitution, that applies to government, but due to other laws that have been passed regarding it.
    Be careful not to confuse my posts with someone else's. I didn't make the argument you're speaking against here. I didn't say the constitution all by it's self is enough law to disallow the ban, I referenced the Constitution as the basis of authority (something Congress should get in the habit of) for the laws I'm proposing. Anyone with a pulse is already aware that additional laws are required to properly regulate, that doesn't need to be pointed out to anyone. And we already know there isn't a law stopping a business from banning firearms from their property, that is in fact the entire problem we've been talking about.

  5. #105
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    1. As Zyphlin said, put another way, you're not Constitutionally protected from having your rights limited by anything other than government.
    .....do I really need to link employer anti-discrimination laws here.....just tell me right now, what level of debate are we going to have....are there things we already know, or do we need to start at square one....just let me know....I mean, I was looking forward to looking at levels of scrutiny, compare how different states handle the issue and their local crime rate....but evidently you aren't even aware of existing anti-discrimination limitations placed on employers by the government to protect employees....so just let me know where you're at.....
    Last edited by Jerry; 08-03-12 at 12:55 AM.

  6. #106
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    What we're talking about here is "a bill to prevent businesses from banning guns on their property[.]"

    I don't think there is a gun rights issue here at all. There is a property rights issue, and it is the NRA trying to infringe on the property rights of business owners to force them to allow guns on their property.

    If the second amendment guaranteed the right to be able to take a gun to your workplace, even when your boss doesn't want you to, then this bill wouldn't even be necessary. So second amendment rights do not enter into this picture. This is simply government coercion.

  7. #107
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    To re-state my argument, employers are already barred from discriminating against applicants and employees: Federal Antidiscrimination Laws | Nolo.com

    Each attribute protected from discrimination is either an immutable characteristic (such as race) and/or is a Constitutional right (religion or political opinion).

    It follows, therefore, that other constitutional rights should also be protected from discrimination. In this case, the right to keep and bear arms.

    Exceptions exist, as exceptions always do, when the employer can demonstrate a bona-fide need. Men shouldn't work in a women's shelter, for example. Likewise an employer with hazardous chemicals on the premises, such as above-ground refueling tanks for heavy equipment, a propane refueling depot, or a paint factory, has a 'need' to not have firearms on the premises.

    Without such a 'need', the discrimination is unjustified and should not be allowed.

  8. #108
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Be careful not to confuse my posts with someone else's. I didn't make the argument you're speaking against here.
    I didn't say you were. However, YOU quoted my post and commented on it and my post WAS commenting on the arguments I"m speaking about here. Since you deemed the desire to quote my post, I assumed your response was in regards to the things I was talking about

  9. #109
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    What we're talking about here is "a bill to prevent businesses from banning guns on their property[.]"

    I don't think there is a gun rights issue here at all. There is a property rights issue, and it is the NRA trying to infringe on the property rights of business owners to force them to allow guns on their property.

    If the second amendment guaranteed the right to be able to take a gun to your workplace, even when your boss doesn't want you to, then this bill wouldn't even be necessary. So second amendment rights do not enter into this picture. This is simply government coercion.
    If you consider it an infringement, then so be it. It's a justified infringement, not the first, but one of several already in existence. You can't discriminate and you have to comply with building codes. If you don't like you can close shop.

  10. #110
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    Re: Which right holds sway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    To re-state my argument, employers are already barred from discriminating against applicants and employees: Federal Antidiscrimination Laws | Nolo.com

    Each attribute protected from discrimination is either an immutable characteristic (such as race) and/or is a Constitutional right (religion or political opinion).

    It follows, therefore, that other constitutional rights should also be protected from discrimination. In this case, the right to keep and bear arms.

    Exceptions exist, as exceptions always do, when the employer can demonstrate a bona-fide need. Men shouldn't work in a women's shelter, for example. Likewise an employer with hazardous chemicals on the premises, such as above-ground refueling tanks for heavy equipment, a propane refueling depot, or a paint factory, has a 'need' to not have firearms on the premises.

    Without such a 'need', the discrimination is unjustified and should not be allowed.
    There are some major flaws with this argument. First of all, political opinions are not protected from discrimination. Employers can fire employees for political opinions all the live long day.

    There are some things that employers cannot discriminate against, such as race and sex, but this is because of legislation, not because these things are constitutional rights.

    You have a constitutional right to freedom of speech, but an employer can fire you for saying the wrong thing. In at will employment states, an employer can fire you for no reason at all, except prohibited reasons like race and sex.

    So your argument is fundamentally faulty. But, honestly, not a bad attempt at a rational argument. Kudos

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