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Is This Ruling Correct?

Is the ruling listed correct


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Redress

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Federal court rules Wisconsin schools' graduations in church were unconstitutional | Fox News

A federal appeals court ruled Monday that two Wisconsin high schools violated the U.S. Constitution by holding graduations in a church -- among the most recent decisions in a long-running debate about the separation of church and state.


A three-judge panel from the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in September the schools did nothing wrong by hold graduation in Elmbrook Church, in the southeastern part of the state.


However, the full 7th Circuit reversed the panel, ruling Monday the ceremonies were unconstitutional and noting students were exposed to religious messages in the form of a giant cross that hung over the church's sanctuary and religious pamphlets on middle school and high school ministries and hymnals in the pews.


So the question is, is the ruling that holding a graduation ceremony for a public school in a church unconstitutional correct?

Edit: for our centrist/independent posters, please choose the side closest to your views.
 
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Well, we have few dummies on the federal bench. To hold a public high school graduation in a church (on its face) does violate the separation clause.
 
The ruling is incorrect. Holding a graduation in a church is not wrong. If they forced everyone to participate in religious services it would be wrong.

I find the comment in the article about being 'exposed' to be humorous because it is so ignorant. The constitution provides for freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion and it's 'symbols'.

To hold a public high school graduation in a church (on its face) does violate the separation clause.

BS. How can you even begin to justify such lunacy? It's a location, nothing more.
 
Federal court rules Wisconsin schools' graduations in church were unconstitutional | Fox News

So the question is, is the ruling that holding a graduation ceremony for a public school in a church unconstitutional correct?

Edit: for our centrist/independent posters, please choose the side closest to your views.

It seems silly on its face. I'm going to make a WAG that they had a practical reason for holding the graduation in a church rather than in their high school. If not? Then....maybe....Hmmmm, maybe I have to rethink this.

I'd need to know why it was held in a church in order to call it. I voted "I'm a Conservative, and I think it's wrong." Now I'm not so sure.
 
If there was nothing religious involved, I'm confused as to why they voted this way.
 
While it probably isn't wrong, it's probably a bad idea for the reasons given. It's likely going to make non-Christians uncomfortable and that ought to be avoided, just as they shouldn't hold it in a Muslim mosque or a Jewish synagogue or a strip club. Are they saying there was no other available space in town but the middle of the church? The church didn't have another public space available?

Not wrong, just ill-conceived.
 
I agree wit the full court's decision that it is unconstitutional for students to be exposed to material of a religion they don't agree with.
 
Not wrong, just ill-conceived.
Good point. I agree. Or, you could use a favorite Marine statement for this one. "Good initiative, bad judgement." You point about the mosque swung it for me. I would be outraged if my son had to into a mosque to graduate high school.
 
Good point. I agree. Or, you could use a favorite Marine statement for this one. "Good initiative, bad judgement." You point about the mosque swung it for me. I would be outraged if my son had to into a mosque to graduate high school.

Why would having it in a mosque be a bad thing? If say the class is too big (with all the guests that will be there) for any of the locations at the school, what does it matter what the main purpose of the building they use is? Most often a 'church' will provide their space either free or for a much lower fee than other locations, for something like a high school graduation.

Perhaps I am of a different mindset, because I prefer that people learn about all things out there, to be better educated in a worldly fashion, about what is out there, and what others believe. I call it tolerance.

And for the record, I'm no fan of any religion, but it hasn't stopped me from going to services of many different religions to see what they were about.
 
Why would having it in a mosque be a bad thing? If say the class is too big (with all the guests that will be there) for any of the locations at the school, what does it matter what the main purpose of the building they use is? Most often a 'church' will provide their space either free or for a much lower fee than other locations, for something like a high school graduation.

Perhaps I am of a different mindset, because I prefer that people learn about all things out there, to be better educated in a worldly fashion, about what is out there, and what others believe. I call it tolerance.

And for the record, I'm no fan of any religion, but it hasn't stopped me from going to services of many different religions to see what they were about.
So you would have no issue with your child graduating high school in say, a strip club? After all, the strip club promised it would be cheap. I teach my son Christian values and he is a born again Christian. I have no desire for him to ever enter a mosque. I am tolerant as well. I am tolerant as far as if someone wants to practice Islam, they can. But I am not tolerant in that I don't mind seeing the Star and Crescent in the background while he's receiving his diploma. One of the most important things I have learned as I dive deeper and deeper into politics and law is the setting of precedent. When you set the precedent that no building is off limits for functions such as these, you open the floodgates for it to go the other way. And believe me, you can say it won't happen all you want. But one day some nut will try it.
 
Federal court rules Wisconsin schools' graduations in church were unconstitutional | Fox News



So the question is, is the ruling that holding a graduation ceremony for a public school in a church unconstitutional correct?

Edit: for our centrist/independent posters, please choose the side closest to your views.

Yes, I do think the ruling is right. There's no reason to hold a graduation in a church nowadays, and there are plenty of non-religious venues to hold such a ceremony.
 
No place else to hold the ceremony is a good dodge, there is the gym, the sports stadium, the Armory- our school just held it on a flat football practice field.

I firmly believe that if the graduation had been held in a Mosque a different poster would have asked if holding a graduation surrounded by the trappings of the religion 'responsible' for 9-11 is treason, liberal brainwashing, a slap in the face of 'traditional 'Merican values', yet another example of the War on Christianity.

How much you want to bet a nickle?

I'll bet a separatist Texas nickle there was a number of places from the gym to the NG armory where the graduation could be held. I doubt there was some 'sinister' plan to convert atheists to Christianity, more like someone throwing their church a good hall rental fee as I doubt the Church held the graduation for free.

wadda country....
 
Federal court rules Wisconsin schools' graduations in church were unconstitutional | Fox News



So the question is, is the ruling that holding a graduation ceremony for a public school in a church unconstitutional correct?

Edit: for our centrist/independent posters, please choose the side closest to your views.

No the ruling is not correct.The first amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Nowhere in this does it state that you can't hold school functions in religious buildings.
 
So you would have no issue with your child graduating high school in say, a strip club? After all, the strip club promised it would be cheap. I teach my son Christian values and he is a born again Christian. I have no desire for him to ever enter a mosque. I am tolerant as well. I am tolerant as far as if someone wants to practice Islam, they can. But I am not tolerant in that I don't mind seeing the Star and Crescent in the background while he's receiving his diploma. One of the most important things I have learned as I dive deeper and deeper into politics and law is the setting of precedent. When you set the precedent that no building is off limits for functions such as these, you open the floodgates for it to go the other way. And believe me, you can say it won't happen all you want. But one day some nut will try it.

If the buildings primary purpose was 'strip club', and it was just empty and available for use as a church or mosque might be, it wouldn't matter to me. Of course, the strip club would never happen as even the biggest of them isn't big enough for such an event.

If seeing symbols of one religion or another is enough to shake someones faith, they are not strong in their faith. My children, at different times, have had the chance to go to services with their friends, and I always approve of it, as it let's them see what others believe and learn differences between different cults (as that's all any religion really is). That people fear what people might see or learn just by walking in a building is yet another part of what I consider to be root of so many of our modern day problems.

If you have delved into law at all, you would know that the constitution provides for the freedom OF religion, and that the 'separation of' is not part of it... the point the constitution makes is to give people the freedom to practice their religion, and to ensure the government does not establish a religion. None of which is being violated by holding a graduation in a church or mosque or temple.
 
No the ruling is not correct.The first amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Nowhere in this does it state that you can't hold school functions in religious buildings.

You are correct. However, when we allow a school to hold a ceremony in a church, you set precedent to hold a grad in a mosque or some other building that most Americans wouldn't approve of. That's my reason for agreeing with it.
 
You are correct. However, when we allow a school to hold a ceremony in a church, you set precedent to hold a grad in a mosque or some other building that most Americans wouldn't approve of. That's my reason for agreeing with it.

That is just showing religious intolerance.
 
Federal court rules Wisconsin schools' graduations in church were unconstitutional | Fox News



So the question is, is the ruling that holding a graduation ceremony for a public school in a church unconstitutional correct?

Edit: for our centrist/independent posters, please choose the side closest to your views.

I'm ambivalent. It's hard to see how using a church constitutes establishment of a state religion, or that it stops the free excercise of another religion.

However, I can see how it can cause offense. I think it likely that the same people who are pleased as punch about it being a church would throw a fit if it were in a mosque. Just saying.
 
Lemon Test time. Remember, it has to satisfy all three criteria to pass.

The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;

I'm guessing they were just looking for a venue at a reasonable cost? If so, Pass.

The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;

That would have to be determined on a case-by-case basis. But if religion is advanced as a byproduct of the ceremony, and not the primary goal, then Pass.

The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.

This is probably going to be the biggest question of the three. What are the conditions of holding the ceremony in the church? Will ministers be speaking at all during the ceremony? Will any religious literature be available? Etc. If any of that happens, Fail. Otherwise, we'll talk.
 
To all those posters who equated this with holding high school graduation in a Mosque. Thanks. I've seen the light. That would be completely unacceptable to me.
 
To all those posters who equated this with holding high school graduation in a Mosque. Thanks. I've seen the light. That would be completely unacceptable to me.
Then, as Arbo said to MarineTPartier, that's just religious intolerance.

I'd want to see why it was held there as opposed to somewhere else. But it's a building. That's all. Nothing religious was presented or encouraged. It may have been poor judgment, but it did not violate the First Amendment with the information presented.
 
You are correct. However, when we allow a school to hold a ceremony in a church, you set precedent to hold a grad in a mosque or some other building that most Americans wouldn't approve of. That's my reason for agreeing with it.

I have no problem with a school function being held in a mosque.I know that most muslims are not terrorists and probably hate terrorists more than we do seeing how muslims make up most of the targets of terrorists.
 
Federal court rules Wisconsin schools' graduations in church were unconstitutional | Fox News



So the question is, is the ruling that holding a graduation ceremony for a public school in a church unconstitutional correct?

Edit: for our centrist/independent posters, please choose the side closest to your views.

I have to wonder if all the students wanted this or not. I noted in the article that it was a "group of of anonymous students and parents" but that doesn't say whether those "students and parents" were a part of those schools.

But in any case I'm getting abit sick and tired of this whole debate. The 1st Amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" A school does not make laws and it is not the government. As long as the schools do not force someone to follow a particular religion I see no problem with what those schools did. Being in a church does not force someone to follow that religion. And this is coming from someone who thinks organized religion is a bunch of BS. This whole "seperation of church and state" thing is getting way out of control.
 
Federal court rules Wisconsin schools' graduations in church were unconstitutional | Fox News



So the question is, is the ruling that holding a graduation ceremony for a public school in a church unconstitutional correct?

Edit: for our centrist/independent posters, please choose the side closest to your views.

Yes, it's unconstitutional unless there is some legitimate reason (i.e. they didn't have access to any secular space large enough to have the ceremony).
 
No the ruling is not correct.The first amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Nowhere in this does it state that you can't hold school functions in religious buildings.

Especially when you consider the fact that for at least a century most schools in the US were held in a church.
 
No the ruling is not correct.The first amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Nowhere in this does it state that you can't hold school functions in religious buildings.

Section 1 of the 14th Amendment extends all the limits on federal power in the Bill of Rights to the state governments as well. And since a local school district is essentially just a creation of the state in which it operates, those restrictions apply to them as well.
 
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