View Poll Results: Is the ruling listed correct

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  • I am conservative and I think it is correct

    6 13.64%
  • I am conservative and I think it is wrong

    7 15.91%
  • I am a conservative and I do not know or am abivelant

    1 2.27%
  • I am a liberal and I think it is correct

    16 36.36%
  • I am a liberal and I think it is wrong

    9 20.45%
  • I am a liberal and I do not know or am abilvelant

    5 11.36%
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Thread: Is This Ruling Correct?

  1. #71
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Religious intolerance, once again, is me telling someone else they can't practice their religion. I'm not saying that. I'm saying I don't want my son inside a mosque.
    Why do you fear your son being inside a mosque?
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  2. #72
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Personally I'm uncomfortable with churches being used as voting sites. (I'd also be interested if any studies have been conducted to determine if voting in a church affects who people vote for.) But often when churches are used as a voting site, it's because it's the most convenient venue. I'm OK with graduation in churches too, if it's the only available venue and if religion isn't discussed/advocated...but generally the government should need to find a different venue for both graduation and voting, if there is one available IMO.
    I have no problem with them hosting government functions in churches, mosques, synagogues, temples or anything else that may open their doors to the public. It may save the government money. I wouldn't support making people pick up pamphlets or listen to a religious (or any other ideological) message, but I see nothing wrong with religiously affiliated places volunteering their space for official government use.
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  3. #73
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Did they get preached to?
    Depends what you mean by preach. If you mean giving a specific religious sermon, no. If you mean publicly speaking a religious message, then it seems as an arguable yes.

    The issue with this case, as explained in the decision that was linked, was the additional presence of actively staffed booths at the ceremony that was advertising and pushing the churches message. It's one thing to use a church's building for just that...a building. It's another thing when your use of the church essentially bestows upon said church an active audiance to be preached and advertised to. The former doesn't give the impression that the school is advocating the religious institution, the other does due to active religious activity at the event the school is running done in such a way as to obviously target the individuals that make up the large portion of the attendees.

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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I think it's wrong. Churches can be used as voting sites, I don't see why graduations can't take place there.
    Churches don't typically have booths up in the lobby of the Church as you go in to vote, staffed with individuals preaching their message and advertising their church to you.

  5. #75
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    ...I fail to see why holding a graduation in a mosque would be a big deal. Again, if you're just renting out the building for your own private uses, if there are no religious ceremonies, observances, or procedures required, then what the hell is the problem?

    Now, there are certain behaviors expected of those entering a mosque that might restrict the ability of any school to hold a graduation ceremony there...particularly if the Imam requires such behaviors be adopted during the rental period. But that isn't really the issue.

    The issue is: If any building classified as a religious house is rented by a private party for a private event, there is really only an issue if and when religious practice is required during the rental period. Otherwise it's just use of a facility.

    If we're going to make this unacceptable we'd have to expand scope quite a bit:

    The healthcare co-op in my high school worked with a local Catholic hospital where the co-op kids worked to gain the necessary observation/practice hours to complete their co-op expectations. That's gotta end, 'cause there are crosses all over the place and tons of priests/nuns wandering about talking with patients. Can't risk that exposure!!

    Key club volunteered at a local nursing home run by a Methodist organization. Religious symbols all over the place, as well as passages from the bible and staff from the Methodist church. Sorry, kids, can't volunteer there anymore..too much of that God stuff all over the place. Can't risk that exposure!!

    Hell, let's go one step further. That kid who is walking to Bible study right after school? He's going to have to leave that Bible at home. Can't risk him bringing it into the school and allowing some other kid to catch a glimpse. And we better remove all of the literature excerpted from the Bhagavad Gita, the Bible, and other religious texts. And no books that cite any of those texts. And no allegorical tales based on those texts. And let's remove any chairs that have the cross pattern reinforcement under the seat...too much like the crucifix, you know.
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Sigh. It's sad that people still need to appeal to other's bigotry in order to get them to understand the need for separation of church and state.
    Wait...

    Are you suggesting that those who didn't want their kid to graduate within a church to ALSO be bigotted?

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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Why do you fear your son being inside a mosque?
    Where did he say Fear?

  8. #78
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Churches don't typically have booths up in the lobby of the Church as you go in to vote, staffed with individuals preaching their message and advertising their church to you.
    I know this, my father is a pastor and the church he is the pastor of is also a voting site. They don't do this and I would have a problem if they did. I think it's a bad ruling though to ban churches from hosting graduations because there may be a cross or hymnal visible and then to say that merely having these things on the premises somehow violates the constitution.
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Depends what you mean by preach. If you mean giving a specific religious sermon, no. If you mean publicly speaking a religious message, then it seems as an arguable yes.

    The issue with this case, as explained in the decision that was linked, was the additional presence of actively staffed booths at the ceremony that was advertising and pushing the churches message. It's one thing to use a church's building for just that...a building. It's another thing when your use of the church essentially bestows upon said church an active audiance to be preached and advertised to. The former doesn't give the impression that the school is advocating the religious institution, the other does due to active religious activity at the event the school is running done in such a way as to obviously target the individuals that make up the large portion of the attendees.
    And that fits into my expectations. If there's a religious message being actively pushed (as with the booths) then yes...I agree. But if the ruling goes so far as to say "no, never..never in a religious building regardless of circumstances" then it goes too far.
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  10. #80
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The court ruling actually touched on this. It stated that there is nothing inherently wrong with a government institution using a churches facilities as that...facilities.

    However, it was the prescense of actively manned booths conducting prostiliticizing of religious programs and messages to the attendees of the graduation that was the issue as it took it from simply using the venue to providing the appearance of the state actively endorsing a religion by allowing the promotion and advertising by the church at a graduation.

    Had they simply been uing the venue, and the church simply allowed them to use the venue just as a convention center or other meeting place would simply allow someone to use a venue, that'd be one thing and I'd have no issue with it. However, when the church is using the schools use of their venue as a means of gaining an audience to actively advertise to, that becomes an issue.
    Thank you for explaining that. I then would agree with your conclusion.
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