View Poll Results: Is the ruling listed correct

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  • I am conservative and I think it is correct

    6 13.64%
  • I am conservative and I think it is wrong

    7 15.91%
  • I am a conservative and I do not know or am abivelant

    1 2.27%
  • I am a liberal and I think it is correct

    16 36.36%
  • I am a liberal and I think it is wrong

    9 20.45%
  • I am a liberal and I do not know or am abilvelant

    5 11.36%
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Thread: Is This Ruling Correct?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    You are correct. However, when we allow a school to hold a ceremony in a church, you set precedent to hold a grad in a mosque or some other building that most Americans wouldn't approve of. That's my reason for agreeing with it.
    I have no problem with a school function being held in a mosque.I know that most muslims are not terrorists and probably hate terrorists more than we do seeing how muslims make up most of the targets of terrorists.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  2. #22
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Federal court rules Wisconsin schools' graduations in church were unconstitutional | Fox News



    So the question is, is the ruling that holding a graduation ceremony for a public school in a church unconstitutional correct?

    Edit: for our centrist/independent posters, please choose the side closest to your views.
    I have to wonder if all the students wanted this or not. I noted in the article that it was a "group of of anonymous students and parents" but that doesn't say whether those "students and parents" were a part of those schools.

    But in any case I'm getting abit sick and tired of this whole debate. The 1st Amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" A school does not make laws and it is not the government. As long as the schools do not force someone to follow a particular religion I see no problem with what those schools did. Being in a church does not force someone to follow that religion. And this is coming from someone who thinks organized religion is a bunch of BS. This whole "seperation of church and state" thing is getting way out of control.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Federal court rules Wisconsin schools' graduations in church were unconstitutional | Fox News



    So the question is, is the ruling that holding a graduation ceremony for a public school in a church unconstitutional correct?

    Edit: for our centrist/independent posters, please choose the side closest to your views.
    Yes, it's unconstitutional unless there is some legitimate reason (i.e. they didn't have access to any secular space large enough to have the ceremony).
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  4. #24
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    No the ruling is not correct.The first amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Nowhere in this does it state that you can't hold school functions in religious buildings.
    Especially when you consider the fact that for at least a century most schools in the US were held in a church.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    No the ruling is not correct.The first amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Nowhere in this does it state that you can't hold school functions in religious buildings.
    Section 1 of the 14th Amendment extends all the limits on federal power in the Bill of Rights to the state governments as well. And since a local school district is essentially just a creation of the state in which it operates, those restrictions apply to them as well.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Section 1 of the 14th Amendment extends all the limits on federal power in the Bill of Rights to the state governments as well. And since a local school district is essentially just a creation of the state in which it operates, those restrictions apply to them as well.
    Did the school attempt to force those children into that religion? If the answer is no then you have no case. Just holding a graduation ceremony in a church is not forcing anyone to join that religion. Again, the first amendment only states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;". Since no public school can make law the first part of the first amendment is not applicable. The second one would only be applicable if the school tried to force students into a religion.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Did the school attempt to force those children into that religion? If the answer is no then you have no case. Just holding a graduation ceremony in a church is not forcing anyone to join that religion. Again, the first amendment only states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;".
    The courts have generally found that needlessly exposing a captive public audience to religious material DOES prohibit the free exercise of religion. It's the same reason why school faculty can't lead their classes in prayer, or why judges can't have overtly religious icons in a court. The government isn't supposed to be doing anything that might encourage or discourage people from practicing religion in general, or any specific religion.

    Since no public school can make law the first part of the first amendment is not applicable. The second one would only be applicable if the school tried to force students into a religion.
    The 14th Amendment extends the governmental limits in the Bill of Rights to the states, so you can essentially read the 1st amendment as saying "Congress and the states shall make no law..." The school is a creation of the state in which it operates, and therefore the state is ultimately accountable. If the state is allowing its appendages to indirectly promote religion, that's not fundamentally different than if the state legislature had directly done so.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-31-12 at 01:07 AM.
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  8. #28
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    It's absurd. Who cares? It wouldn't matter to me at all if my kids had graduated in a church or a mosque or a synagog or a temple.

    This is the song is perfect for this thread. In my twisted way of looking at the world the song, by fellow Georgian, Tim Wilson, shows how stupid it's all become.

    The First Baptist Bar and Grill.


  9. #29
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The courts have generally found that needlessly exposing a captive public audience to religious material DOES prohibit the free exercise of religion. It's the same reason why school faculty can't lead their classes in prayer, or why judges can't have overtly religious icons in a court. The government isn't supposed to be doing anything that might encourage or discourage people from practicing religion in general, or any specific religion.
    If the audiance was captive then you would have a point, however it should be noted that one does not have to attend a graduation ceremony in order to graduate. As such no one was "captive". Everyone there was quite free to leave or stay or not even come to the ceremony in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The 14th Amendment extends the governmental limits in the Bill of Rights to the states...so you can essentially read the 1st amendment as saying "Congress and the states shall make no law..." The school is a creation of the state in which it operates, and therefore the state is ultimately accountable. If the state is allowing its appendages to indirectly promote religion, that's not fundamentally different than if the state legislature had directly done so.
    Show me where it says that no government entity can/cannot promote religion. It just says that they cannot make laws for or against religion. There is a difference. It is also where our courts that rule against such things have gone wrong.
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  10. #30
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    If the audiance was captive then you would have a point, however it should be noted that one does not have to attend a graduation ceremony in order to graduate. As such no one was "captive". Everyone there was quite free to leave or stay or not even come to the ceremony in the first place.
    Most reasonable people would conclude that, even if not technically mandatory, attending a graduation ceremony is something that many people would feel obligated to do or at least strongly want to do. It's like saying that a football coach at a public school doesn't have a captive audience if he leads his athletes in prayer, since they can always quit the football team. Although technically true, most people would still consider that to be a captive audience. And the courts largely agree.

    Show me where it says that no government entity can/cannot promote religion.
    "Amendment 14, Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

    The bolded part is what extends the protections in the Bill of Rights, and applies them to the states as well as the federal government. Therefore it applies to public schools, which are appendages of the states.

    It just says that they cannot make laws for or against religion. There is a difference.
    "Passing a law" is a nebulous concept, because the state presumably *did* pass a law that established the public education system in that state, which ultimately led to the creation of this school. As far as the US Constitution is concerned, there are only two levels of government: The federal government and the state governments. All local entities like school districts are nothing more than an extension of the state governments.
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