View Poll Results: Is the ruling listed correct

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  • I am conservative and I think it is correct

    6 13.64%
  • I am conservative and I think it is wrong

    7 15.91%
  • I am a conservative and I do not know or am abivelant

    1 2.27%
  • I am a liberal and I think it is correct

    16 36.36%
  • I am a liberal and I think it is wrong

    9 20.45%
  • I am a liberal and I do not know or am abilvelant

    5 11.36%
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Thread: Is This Ruling Correct?

  1. #111
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    Maybe it's regional? 'Cause in Michigan, Texas, and Indiana I've only known of ONE graduation ceremony that took place on district property.
    Every high school graduation I've ever been to around here has been at the school itself. I know that's the case at local schools, I've driven past them and seen it.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  2. #112
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    You intially said I was intolerant. I have shown I'm not.
    Being around a group you are intolerant of does not not mean you are tolerant of them. It's sort of like when people say 'but I have black/gay friends'. The rest of your rant is just diversion.
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  3. #113
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    This is probably going to be the biggest question of the three. What are the conditions of holding the ceremony in the church? Will ministers be speaking at all during the ceremony? Will any religious literature be available? Etc. If any of that happens, Fail. Otherwise, we'll talk.
    Looks like we have our answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Here's a little more information that I dug up in regards to ONE of these situations. This situation concerns the Elmbrook School District. Apparently, they held their graduation ceremonies in a supposedly non-denominational Christian "mega-church" for years, due to lack of comfort and air conditioning in their school's gym. The plaintiff's case cites that religious symbols were NOT covered up (the district asked, but the church refused) AND that there was some evangelism of students outside before graduation ceremonies commenced. Pamphlets proselytizing were also there. Seems to me that this goes a bit beyond just having the ceremony in a building. The church was absolutely wrong for their refusal to NOT do these things, but it was the district's responsibility. Seems to me that in this case, this was a good call.

    Here is the article discussing this:

    UPDATE: Elmbrook Schools Chief Disappointed in Church-Graduation Ruling - Brookfield, WI Patch
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  4. #114
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Federal court rules Wisconsin schools' graduations in church were unconstitutional | Fox News



    So the question is, is the ruling that holding a graduation ceremony for a public school in a church unconstitutional correct?

    Edit: for our centrist/independent posters, please choose the side closest to your views.
    The ruling is correct, and consistent with a 1985 ruling against the state of Alabama, stating that government must take a stance of "complete neutrality toward religion".
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  5. #115
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    To many people it *is* undesirable to not attend their graduation ceremony, as evidenced by the large number of people who normally choose to attend such events. To illustrate this point, consider the following situation: A football coach at a public school leads his students in an Islamic prayer at the beginning of a game. Do you think this is OK? After all, they can choose to quit the team; their attendance is completely optional. I think most of us would agree that this is still a captive audience, even if attendance is not strictly compulsory.
    Firstly, just because it IS undesireable to some people to not attend their graduation ceremony doesn't mean anything objectively. Secondly, your "football prayer" example is a poor one. The player doesn't have to quit the team. He can choose to not participate in the prayer.

    In any case, there's also the issue that the taxpayers presumably footed the bill for the graduation ceremony. And taxpayer money generally cannot be spent on promoting a religion.
    If the proselytizing and evangelism had not happened there would have been no promoting of religion just because it was held in a building.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #116
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    Religious intolerance, once again, is me telling someone else they can't practice their religion. I'm not saying that. I'm saying I don't want my son inside a mosque. Which I have a perfect right to say. If someone wants to practice Islam, more power to them. If they want to build a mosque, have at it. If they want to force me into the mosque in order to see my son graduate, I now have a problem with that. My course of action would be to just hold my son out of graduation. I wouldn't force everyone else to bend to my beliefs. However, thats the way this was handled in our lawsuit happy country so here we are.
    You sound like allowing your son to be in a mosque will corrupt him in some way. To me, that sounds like religious intolerance. I do agree with the last few lines of your post, though.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #117
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    I don't think people should be required to go to a religious building for a state supported secular event. There is no switch that can flipped which makes a religious building non-religious for a period of time.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



  8. #118
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by beerftw View Post
    this wasnt the thought or framework of the first amendment,madison wrote the first amendment,jefferson only had some inspirational speeches that inspired parts of the constitution,but didnt write or even sign the constitution or bill of rights.

    madison was the largest contributor to the 1st amendment,madison and jefferson both agreed on govt and religion being seperates,but jefferson took it to higher levels.madison believe the govt should be influenced by,or fund religion.jefferson believed they shouldnt be in contact with eachother.


    the simple fact is the word seperation of church and state didnt come about until well after the first amendment was written and signed by a person who didnt do either.

    There are many more qualified authorities who would disagree with you. "The Supreme Court turned the spotlight on the "wall of separation" phrase in 1878 by declaring in Reynolds v. United States "that it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [first] amendment."

    The high court took the same position in widely publicized decisions in 1947 and 1948, asserting in the latter case, McCollum v. Board of Education, that, "in the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between church and state.'" Since McCollum forbade religious instruction in public schools, it appeared that the court had used Jefferson's "wall" metaphor as a sword to sever religion from public life, a result that was and still is intolerable to many Americans."
    Last edited by Connery; 08-01-12 at 05:25 AM.

  9. #119
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Being around a group you are intolerant of does not not mean you are tolerant of them. It's sort of like when people say 'but I have black/gay friends'. The rest of your rant is just diversion.
    So what you're saying is a homphobe or racist can have black or gay friends? Wouldn't that make them, I don't know, not a homophobe or racist? I'm slowly seeing why you are a mockery on this website. You are not offering debate in any terms. You have a stance, you don't know why you believe it or how to express it, and anyone that debates your stance is just wrong. The funny part is, your stance is telling me how I feel lol. When evidence is lacking, stonewalling is the best route to go eh?
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  10. #120
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    Re: Is This Ruling Correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarineTpartier View Post
    So what you're saying is a homphobe or racist can have black or gay friends? Wouldn't that make them, I don't know, not a homophobe or racist? I'm slowly seeing why you are a mockery on this website. You are not offering debate in any terms. You have a stance, you don't know why you believe it or how to express it, and anyone that debates your stance is just wrong. The funny part is, your stance is telling me how I feel lol. When evidence is lacking, stonewalling is the best route to go eh?
    Wow, that's a lot of work to divert from your own issues. But if it makes you feel better about yourself, go for it, you obviously need it.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

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