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Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]

Do you think water boarding is torture?


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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

You can go off all you want, but that isn't evidence.

I don't care if it's evidence or not, I'm telling you what I know from personal experience with the subject. You can ignore that if you want, but it is what it is.

And you last snetence said this: Navy SERE schools is a personal friend of over 20 years. I assumed SEL was one and this sentence was the other. But, not a name, no link, nothing verifable.

You mean this sentence?

In fact, the current SEL of one of the two Navy SERE schools is a personal friend of over 20 years.

I dare say it's clearer than your sentence referencing my sentence. Now, would you like me to post his SSN and address? You don't have any reason to discount what I say about my own personal experience.

I have supported my claim. You have not. ANd running off mad won't change that. We have testinmony before congress, very much verifiable, and it supports my claim and not yours. Sorry.

All you've done is regurgitate an opinion. Someone else's.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Now, Boo, so we're clear, I don't endorse the use of waterboarding in interrogations. Mainly because the American people are against it, and they have every right to dictate the actions of their government's agents. However, I don't now, nor ever will agree with the exaggerated description of torture in regard to it. Just like most of us that have been through it.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

The issue to me is not as much "is it torture", but "why should I care"?

Look, things like this are always subjective. We place prisoners in general population, and people scream it is inhumane. We put them in solitary, this also is inhumane. No matter what, people will always scream and cry and whine, so I simply ignore most of them. When these individuals start to show 1/10th of the concern of the prisoners we hold of theirs, to the prisoners they hold of ours, then I might actually give a flying fig.

 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Now, Boo, so we're clear, I don't endorse the use of waterboarding in interrogations. Mainly because the American people are against it, and they have every right to dictate the actions of their government's agents. However, I don't now, nor ever will agree with the exaggerated description of torture in regard to it. Just like most of us that have been through it.


I don't mean to be persistent, but the evidence says you haven't. Those who know were brought before congress. They gave their testimony. And they said, no me, not democrats, not liberals, but those who ran the program, set teh ruels, they said you did not.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I don't care if it's evidence or not, I'm telling you what I know from personal experience with the subject. You can ignore that if you want, but it is what it is.

And I'm telling you you cannot possibly know unless you done both.

You mean this sentence?

Not the way it came up on my screen.


All you've done is regurgitate an opinion. Someone else's.

A qualified opinion. One that knows both what is doen in interrorgation and what you were subjected to. The creators and adminsitrators of the program.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I don't mean to be persistent, but the evidence says you haven't. Those who know were brought before congress. They gave their testimony. And they said, no me, not democrats, not liberals, but those who ran the program, set teh ruels, they said you did not.

The evidence says I have. I am the evidence.

And for the last time: SERE is not one program run by one person or even a few people. Nor was designed by one person or a few people.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

And I'm telling you you cannot possibly know unless you done both.

Well, you've done neither...

Not the way it came up on my screen.

The original is still there...get your "screen" checked.

A qualified opinion. One that knows both what is doen in interrorgation and what you were subjected to. The creators and adminsitrators of the program.

Qualified, sure, but just an opinion. One of many.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

The evidence says I have. I am the evidence.

And for the last time: SERE is not one program run by one person or even a few people. Nor was designed by one person or a few people.

I understand, but it has a head, it has a procedure, and way of doing things, and the military is very good at doing it just they way they are told to. You as one individual, having only experienced that rpogram, cannot possibly know if it is the same. Those who know both, set up the program, made the ground rules, say you are wrong. It is simple and verifiable. You've offered nothing that meets that standard. Sorry.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Well, you've done neither...

I haven't walked on the moon without a space suit either, but I know I need one if I go there.

The original is still there...get your "screen" checked.

I did, and it comes up broken up as a separate sentence. But it is a minor thing. Not anythign I'm worried about either way.

Qualified, sure, but just an opinion. One of many.

No, opinions are nto created equal. Those who know more, and explan clearly why are better than those that know less and don't remotely address the issue at hand. Agian, You cannot possibley know if they are the same unless you've experienced both.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I understand, but it has a head, it has a procedure, and way of doing things, and the military is very good at doing it just they way they are told to. You as one individual, having only experienced that rpogram, cannot possibly know if it is the same. Those who know both, set up the program, made the ground rules, say you are wrong. It is simple and verifiable. You've offered nothing that meets that standard. Sorry.

No, it doesn't. Each service has it's own SERE programs run, led, managed and owned entirely by the individual service and tailored to that services needs/directives.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

No, it doesn't. Each service has it's own SERE programs run, led, managed and owned entirely by the individual service and tailored to that services needs/directives.

That doesn't change ****. The program for all of the was laid on how it was to be handled. Agian, they were testifying before congress about the entire progrma and how it was done eveywhere. Again, unless you have been thorugh both, you cannot make a comparison.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I haven't walked on the moon without a space suit either, but I know I need one if I go there.

But you'd rather take what you've read about it rather than first hand expirience of one who has trained to walk on the moon (but has yet to walk on the moon)

I did, and it comes up broken up as a separate sentence. But it is a minor thing. Not anythign I'm worried about either way.

Then your ridicule is all the more senseless.

No, opinions are nto created equal. Those who know more, and explan clearly why are better than those that know less and don't remotely address the issue at hand. Agian, You cannot possibley know if they are the same unless you've experienced both.

Who is this person who has been through SERE and has been interrogated with the use of waterbaording are you citing? Or, is your expert just someone who is familiar with the training?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

That doesn't change ****. The program for all of the was laid on how it was to be handled. Agian, they were testifying before congress about the entire progrma and how it was done eveywhere.

This is simply not true, as it can't be unless quite a few more people testified.

Again, unless you have been thorugh both, you cannot make a comparison.

Again, you've been through neither, so you can do even less.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

When someone is water boarded while not a captive of another country under circumstances that do not allow to opt out or go have a beer with your buddies laugh it off the situation is much different. But here is the crux of water boarding it is not just interrogating a suspect for information. Water boarding is designed to punish and terrify the suspect to get them to answer any and all questions. Water boarding is used like torture so whether you believe its torture or not in some strange partisan denial reflex. Clearly the intent is there.

And where there is intent to use torture and justify it, then we can bet that the same people will justify torture or what they consider real torture. Im mean why not use torture it will save lives right? And hell since everyone thinks that the US tortures people why not use it?

I remember when we invaded Iraq and found Saddams torture chambers and how everyone was appalled and the Right felt that the invasion was justified. That vile dictator was torturing people so what does that say about supporters of water boarding today?

And before that the world was appalled at by the actions of the Nazis.

Does not anyone today remember Bataan and Corregidor? Was the hell that those men went through to be in vain? because some Americans chose to forget those atrocities and even try to justify them despite the lessons that this country learned at the hands of the enemy? Is this what we have become the vile excuses for human being that our flesh and blood fought and gave their lives to stop? Are we to join the ranks of the Viet cong and the Mexican drug cartels?

This isnt about who thinks that water boarding is torture or how you can try to justify water torture. This is about principle, American principle and who we are as a nation stand for and what stand against. Are we a nation that is backed against a wall and must employee the very vile actions that we are fighting against? If we have become so desperate that we need to justify torture perhaps we should just pack up and go home since we will be inspiring generations of foreigner to hate us.


Japanese Atrocities during World War II in Philippines | World War Stories
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

But you'd rather take what you've read about it rather than first hand expirience of one who has trained to walk on the moon (but has yet to walk on the moon)

Sure, because logically, you cannot know unless you've been through both. You can't make that comparison. And those who put it together know both, know it well, as they have to design the program.

Then your ridicule is all the more senseless.

Not sure what you mean there as I did not ridecule. I merely didn't know what you meant at first. I explained why.


Who is this person who has been through SERE and has been interrogated with the use of waterbaording are you citing? Or, is your expert just someone who is familiar with the training?


The links are back there. I posted them for you. You have congressional testimony from both the former U.S. Navy Senior Chief, SERE instructor, and expert in prisoners of war and terrorist hostage survival techniques and the chief Psychologist who set the rules for safety for the participants. Their names escape me, but they are who congress called and their testimony was linked for you to read.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

This is simply not true, as it can't be unless quite a few more people testified.

No, you don't need dozens, or hundreds, or thousands. The program isn't that complicated.

Again, you've been through neither, so you can do even less.

Which is why I'm not claiming I know from personal experience. That claim can only be made from someone who has done both. Or more correctly, survivied both.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Sure, because logically, you cannot know unless you've been through both. You can't make that comparison. And those who put it together know both, know it well, as they have to design the program.

but reading about it makes you an expert...


Not sure what you mean there as I did not ridecule. I merely didn't know what you meant at first. I explained why.

It's back there...

The links are back there. I posted them for you. You have congressional testimony from both the former U.S. Navy Senior Chief, SERE instructor, and expert in prisoners of war and terrorist hostage survival techniques and the chief Psychologist who set the rules for safety for the participants. Their names escape me, but they are who congress called and their testimony was linked for you to read.

Yes, but the person that you claim has expirienced both waterboarding in training and as a prisoner of war is absent from your links. Please point out that guy.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

but reading about it makes you an expert...

You know, reading is not a bad thing. This is how many people learn things. This is one of the reasons education is suffering, because parents say reading doesn't lead to knowledge. However, the point is I point to people who knew BOTH. You only know one.


Yes, but the person that you claim has experienced both water boarding in training and as a prisoner of war is absent from your links. Please point out that guy.

No, they understand both. They had to in order to create the program, to know where to stop so that you were not damaged. I'm sorry, but you're looking for away to ignore those who know more than you do. You expect people to just accept that you're accurate, providing nothing beyond you. Nowhere is that good enough. You simply don't have enough experience in either having experienced both, or studied both. Nowhere are you a recognized expert.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Torture: the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

I'd say it fits quite easily within that definition. So, yes.

I've been waterboarded. it is not pleasant but it is hardly excruciating pain.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I've been waterboarded. it is not pleasant but it is hardly excruciating pain.

But you haven't had the entire deal, the real deal. See above discussion and links I've posted on it.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

But you haven't had the entire deal, the real deal. See above discussion and links I've posted on it.

you have no ****ing clue what I have or have not had. so your "opinion" is less than worthless
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

You know, reading is not a bad thing. This is how many people learn things. This is one of the reasons education is suffering, because parents say reading doesn't lead to knowledge. However, the point is I point to people who knew BOTH. You only know one.

Well, you might try a little more reading, as I clearly said I new hundreds. Further in the reading you'll find that I have read what you've read and experienced what you haven't.

No, they understand both. They had to in order to create the program, to know where to stop so that you were not damaged. I'm sorry, but you're looking for away to ignore those who know more than you do. You expect people to just accept that you're accurate, providing nothing beyond you. Nowhere is that good enough. You simply don't have enough experience in either having experienced both, or studied both. Nowhere are you a recognized expert.

They didn't create the program...it's funny though that you say they understood what I can't understand because neither I nor them have experienced "both". Cognitive dissonance they name is Boo.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

While I do think it's torture, is it justifiable? It's not as though we are cutting of fingers, popping of finger joints with sharp knives, or slowly stripping flesh. Millions of lives could be saved preventatively by applying waterboarding. To those who are against it, what if your loved ones could be protected through these measures? If my parents were saved due to making a man feel like he's drowning for a little while, I would be secure knowing that my loved ones and others were safe.

Life isn't peaches and sunshine and happiness.

There are those out there who want to kill you and the rest of you. If waterboarding is a more reasonable means of assuring our safety then so be it.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Well, you might try a little more reading, as I clearly said I new hundreds. Further in the reading you'll find that I have read what you've read and experienced what you haven't.

You know hundreds who only know one. They don't know the other, thus can't compare. Sorry, but you're missing the point.

They didn't create the program...it's funny though that you say they understood what I can't understand because neither I nor them have experienced "both". Cognitive dissonance they name is Boo.

They did head the program yes, and yes they KNOW both.

If anyone has cognitive dissonance here it is you. You're dancing all around the point. And have offered nothing to support your claim.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

you have no ****ing clue what I have or have not had. so your "opinion" is less than worthless

BY all means, show when you've been held captive by an enemy and waterborded. Show that, and I'll admit my mistake. Absent that, I would be correct.
 
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