Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Boo Radley said:

No offense, but you haven't. Those who run the program have stated clearly before congress they only give a taste and not the real thing. Sorry.

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You are wrong...........Many SEALS and Special Forces have been water boarded prior to it being outlawed and none of them died..........

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Guy Incognito said:

Do you think it's wrong to kill an innocent child? What if you had to kill an innocent to save a loved one's life? Would you feel differently about it?

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That is a riduclous comparison my left wing friend. Lets just say I would do anything it takes to save a love one.

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Navy Pride said:

You are wrong...........Many SEALS and Special Forces have been water boarded prior to it being outlawed and none of them died..........

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You do realize the difference between forcing somebody to be waterboarded, and somebody volunteering for it as a training exercise in case they are waterboarded.... correct?

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Boo Radley said:

How about if you had sex with another man might save a life, would you do? I've asked others, to which I haven't seen an answer yet, but where is your line? Forget that you're not likely to ever get any good information with torture, but if we go that far, where will you not go?

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That is a ****ing riduclous question even for you.

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Navy Pride said:

That is a ****ing riduclous question even for you.

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:rofl :rofl !!!!

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Hatuey said:

You do realize the difference between forcing somebody to be waterboarded, and somebody volunteering for it as a training exercise in case they are waterboarded.... correct?

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Its the same principle and they try and make it as realistic as possible just like when I was placed in the little black box when I went to survivial school prior to going to Nam..........Of course its not the same, that is only common sense but I can tell you it gets your attention.

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

MaggieD said:

:rofl :rofl !!!!

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Thank you maggie, for some reason it won't let me say "I like this post."

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I think it's torture. I've almost drowned before and it wasn't all that fun. Torture in general isn't that great an idea in my mind.

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Sirham said:

I think it's torture. I've almost drowned before and it wasn't all that fun. Torture in general isn't that great an idea in my mind.

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what if by torture you saved a loved one's life

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Navy Pride said:

That is a ****ing riduclous question even for you.

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Just want to know where your line is. Do you have one?

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Navy Pride said:

You are wrong...........Many SEALS and Special Forces have been water boarded prior to it being outlawed and none of them died..........

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Sorry, the people in charge say NO. They say what was done was not the same.

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Just some highlights:

Chairman Levin. Are the physical and psychological pressures, which are designed for use in SERE school for training students, intended to be used against detainees to obtain intelligence?


Dr. Ogrisseg. No, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Levin. Why not?

Dr. Ogrisseg. Those techniques are derived from what has historically happened to our personnel who have been detained by the enemy. From those, we derived some learning objectives and some situations to put students through so that we can test their decisionmaking-building, and also use some of those strategies to increase their resistance and the confidence that they would be able to survive if they are subjected to them. It's not the same at all as something that would be applied in an interrogation setting.

(snip)

Senator Graham. Based on your studies of this subject matter, is it fair to say that you can get almost anybody to say anything if you're hard enough on them over time?

Dr. Ogrisseg. I would say that that's true, but that's also the problem. You could get them to say anything.

(snip)

Chairman Levin. Okay. Just, Dr. Ogrisseg, one other question for you. In an article, or a book, that you wrote, the book called, ``Code of Conduct and the Psychology of Captivity: Training, Coping, and Reintegration of Military Life,'' you said that, ``The use of physical torture has historically yielded poor information and, paradoxically, serves to enhance resistance.''

Dr. Ogrisseg. Yes, sir.

Chairman Levin. ``Furthermore, the practices serves to decrease the legitimacy of the offending organization or country. Physical torture, in most instances, has produced false confessions or inaccurate or reliable information.'' Is
that true? Did you write that?

Dr. Ogrisseg. Yes, I did, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman Levin. Is that your belief?

Dr. Ogrisseg. Yes, it is, Mr. Chairman.

The Treatment of Detainees in U.S. Custody

In late 2002, a document was put out called -- literally its title is "SERE Standing Operative Procedure" for GTMO. And I'm going to quote to you. "The premise behind this is that the interrogation tactics used at US military SERE schools are appropriate for use in real world interrogations. These tactics and techniques are used at SERE school to break SERE detainees. The same tactics and techniques can be used to break real detainees during interrogation operations."

Someone needs to go to jail. That's all there is to it. This is disgusting. Thousands of service members, thousands, went through that process and were tortured around the world. People died to -- so that we could have those techniques brought out and shown our service member how to resist it. It's disgusting. How could they dare take this? How could they so -- how could they dishonor us like that? Every ex-captive in this nation should be standing up against this. They literally went and took the techniques of the North Vietnamese and said we could use it to break them? I didn't know that, by the way. I'm pretty pissed. I mean this is ridiculous.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/torturingdemocracy/interviews/malcolm_nance.html

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Navy Pride said:

Its the same principle and they try and make it as realistic as possible just like when I was placed in the little black box when I went to survivial school prior to going to Nam..........Of course its not the same, that is only common sense but I can tell you it gets your attention.

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Okay - you're really not getting the concept of forcing somebody to torture vs training somebody to resist it. How would you like for me to explain it to you? I'm really good with drawings. Maybe we could do like a picture game of some kind. I'm up for anything really as long as we make it into a game. We could have some fun with it. I could draw something which is forced vs something for which one volunteers and you can tell us things like legal and moral liabilities in each case. You up for it?

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Just thought I'd point out some of the rabid left wingers who voted in this poll:

0bserver92, 24107, 99percenter, Anagram, Arcana XV, ashurbanipal, Baralis, Blackdog, Bodhisattva, Boring Bob, Catawba, DA60, Darrell, DaveFagan, Dezaad, DiavoTheMiavo, DrunkenAsparagus, DVSentinel, earthworm, finebead, FreedomFromAll, Fruityfact, Gardener, German guy, Gina, gunner, Guy Incognito, Hare, Hatuey, Helix, iguanaman, IndieVisible, Jetboogieman, joko104, Jredbaron96, JRog, kerussll, kmiller1610, MadLib, MaggieD, Manc Skipper, Mickey Shane, molten_dragon, monkeyloveafight, MoSurveyor, mpg, MSgt, Neomalthusian, notquiteright, OnWisconsin, Paratrooper, Paschendale, pbrauer, peepnklown, Penderyn, PeteEU, Phys251, PirateMk1, Risky Thicket, RMillz11, Sarcogito, Simlasa, Sirham, sKiTzo, Smart, SmokeAndMirrors, Somerville, Sonic, specklebang, Surtr, teamosil, TheDemSocialist, TheLastIndependent, Thorgasm, upsideguy, Van Basten, Wake, whysoserious, Wiggen, Your Star, Zariak

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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Hatuey said:

Okay - you're really not getting the concept of forcing somebody to torture vs training somebody to resist it. How would you like for me to explain it to you? I'm really good with drawings. Maybe we could do like a picture game of some kind. I'm up for anything really as long as we make it into a game. We could have some fun with it. I could draw something which is forced vs something for which one volunteers and you can tell us things like legal and moral liabilities in each case. You up for it?

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The small black box to which he refers is about 3 feet long, 18 inches wide, and perhaps 24 inches deep. To get in, you cross your legs at your ankles, squat, bend over into the box and then somebody sits on the box to get the lid down by compressing the occupant, and then the fun begins. Imagine the blood circulation problems. The box is not a training technique, but real time torture. As he said, you can't stand or walk when they lift you out.

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Navy Pride said:

That is a riduclous comparison my left wing friend. Lets just say I would do anything it takes to save a love one.

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It's a precise analogy. If you're the type of person for whom the ends justify the means, then you might torture or murder or what have you to get your way. Other people recognize an objective morality where the ends do not justify immoral means.
Which choice you make says a lot about you as a person

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Navy Pride said:

what if by torture you saved a loved one's life

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I don't really understand the question. I said it wasn't great an idea in my mind. If it's absolutely necessary, I guess.

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Navy Pride said:

Do you honestly believe that our enemies pay any attention to the Geneva Convention and follow it? My God man they cut off our soldiers heads....Now that is torture.........

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NP reasoning - criminals don't follow laws, therefore no need for laws.

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Boo Radley said:

No offense, but you haven't. Those who run the program have stated clearly before congress they only give a taste and not the real thing. Sorry.

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I have, and there is no "water boarding program". Nobody "runs it".

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

mac said:

I have, and there is no "water boarding program". Nobody "runs it".

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SERE. ANd they do use a slight touch of waterboarding, and I've linked them saying it isn't the same. I'm sorry, but you likely only think you have.

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Boo Radley said:

SERE. ANd they do use a slight touch of waterboarding, and I've linked them saying it isn't the same. I'm sorry, but you likely only think you have.

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For the record waterboarding is in fact torture as defined by The Inquistion spanish and otherwise. Its considered a 3rd degree torture tecnique. As for its utility thats debateble. I personally think it should be against the law to use it.

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Boo Radley said:

SERE. ANd they do use a slight touch of waterboarding, and I've linked them saying it isn't the same. I'm sorry, but you likely only think you have.

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Oh, boo.

Waterboarding is a trick. A cloth is placed over the face and then water is poured on it, inducing the feeling of drowning. That is what happened to me and that is what happened to the detainees. There is no "slight touch of waterbaording."

Now, you can go on opinions from the internet. I'll go on everything you have access to, a lot you don't have access to, and actual expirience with the subject matter.

Now, I'm sorry, but you likely only think you know what you're talking about.

Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Guy Incognito said:

It's a precise analogy. If you're the type of person for whom the ends justify the means, then you might torture or murder or what have you to get your way. Other people recognize an objective morality where the ends do not justify immoral means.
Which choice you make says a lot about you as a person

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There are moral implications whichever side of this issue you're on. It's a little sad to me that your "side" so easily dismisses that.

BTW, when did some of you start believing that there is such a thing as an objective morality? That's actually kinda nice to see. I guess some "absolutes" and some "black and white thinking" is ok after all.