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Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]

Do you think water boarding is torture?


  • Total voters
    128
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

These are simply talking points. If it was not effective it would not be used. Can a detainee give false information? Certainly but they can by other means as well.

No, they are nto talking points. That's just the excuse used not to addresss them. And people use ineffective stuff all the time. It is simply false that it wouldn't be used if it weren't effective. We've tortured quite a few people. We know of two deaths, one we know was innocent and the other likely innocent, we tortured a guy because we got his name wrong, we know we've gotten misinformation and acted on it, and with all this evidence against it, there is next to nothing documented any success with it. These are the simply facts of the matter. We have many texts written on effective interrogation techqinues and much that shows many of them far more effective. And in fact, or best intel came from those techniques.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I'm sorry, but it isn't effective.

in fact it is.

They did not get critical information from the torture, and what little they got, they got the same information and more without it.

given that we did not torture, I would say we probably gained very little indeed.

if, however, you mean enhanced interrogation, then that program was responsible for large portions if not most of what we know about the workings and plans of central al-qaeda leadership, which is how we were able to effectively target them.

When you consider how clearly we can document not only misinformation, but misinformation that we USED, to our detriment, to argue it is effective is what is really foolish

disinformation from interrogation is successful when the detainee has the mental faculty to maintain a complex figment; which is incredibly difficult to do when tired and under stress.

"Curveball"? The Source that convinced us Saddam had an active CW program? He was interrogated in the nice-guy-way. And he lied convincingly and we never caught on. Someone undergoing enhanced interrogation is going to find that exceedingly difficult to do.

No one argues everyone doesn't break, even the innocnet confess, and even those who know knowing give something. This is the problem with it.

I love how you say things like this, because it really drives home that you don't really have any idea what goes on in an interrogation :).
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

in fact it is.

We agree then, it is ineffective.

given that we did not torture, I would say we probably gained very little indeed.

if, however, you mean enhanced interrogation, then that program was responsible for large portions if not most of what we know about the workings and plans of central al-qaeda leadership, which is how we were able to effectively target them.

This is where you try to play word games, hoping to hide the immorality of actually torturing people. This was the Bush tactic and it seems to have worked for you. I suggest any person who can pretend this wasn't torture lacks a moral core.



disinformation from interrogation is successful when the detainee has the mental faculty to maintain a complex figment; which is incredibly difficult to do when tired and under stress.

"Curveball"? The Source that convinced us Saddam had an active CW program? He was interrogated in the nice-guy-way. And he lied convincingly and we never caught on. Someone undergoing enhanced interrogation is going to find that exceedingly difficult to do.

Apparently not as difficult as you think, as people have given misinformaiton often.

This is also where you try to misrepresnt what was said. Many find doing this dishonest. I said, and I've been specific, we used al Libi's information that we got under torture as part of our reasoning for going to war. "Curveball wasn't really interrogated. And the german's told us he was unreliable. But, when you want to go war, we're willing to use both. Same as using the heros in error of Chalibi's. But the FACT remains, we tortured, got wrong information, and used it.



I love how you say things like this, because it really drives home that you don't really have any idea what goes on in an interrogation :).

I love how you try to be dismissive without actually providing anything of substance. Try actually addressing what is said.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Well judging by the results of this poll DP members still lean to the far left........To think water boarding is torture when we do it to our own troops is ridiculous. When I was in the Navy in order to go to Vietnam you had to go to survival school and spend time in a POW camp in Warner Springs Ca. One of the things they did to us was put us in these amall boxes and you had no idea how long you would be there.........What happens after time is your legs and feet fall asleep and when they finally let you out (I was in the box for 45 minutes) you can't stand......Now that was torture
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

One has a nightmare. That nightmare entails have your fingers slowly pulled off.

Another has a nightmare about drowning, ever so slowly.

Mutilation is torture, but drowning isn't? Why?

Waterboarding is torture.

Just voted "Yes," too.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Well judging by the results of this poll DP members still lean to the far left........To think water boarding is torture when we do it to our own troops is ridiculous. When I was in the Navy in order to go to Vietnam you had to go to survival school and spend time in a POW camp in Warner Springs Ca. One of the things they did to us was put us in these amall boxes and you had no idea how long you would be there.........What happens after time is your legs and feet fall asleep and when they finally let you out (I was in the box for 45 minutes) you can't stand......Now that was torture

I didn't know having a moral compass was a left thing. Learn something new every day.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Well judging by the results of this poll DP members still lean to the far left........To think water boarding is torture when we do it to our own troops is ridiculous. When I was in the Navy in order to go to Vietnam you had to go to survival school and spend time in a POW camp in Warner Springs Ca. One of the things they did to us was put us in these amall boxes and you had no idea how long you would be there.........What happens after time is your legs and feet fall asleep and when they finally let you out (I was in the box for 45 minutes) you can't stand......Now that was torture
There are some pretty far right wing people who voted Yes NP. Much further to the right than you in fact. Just because some one disagrees with you on an issue does not make them left wing.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I didn't know having a moral compass was a left thing. Learn something new every day.

Look at how the vote went left vs right and with few exceptions you will find that the left thinks it torture and the right does not.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Well judging by the results of this poll DP members still lean to the far left........To think water boarding is torture when we do it to our own troops is ridiculous. When I was in the Navy in order to go to Vietnam you had to go to survival school and spend time in a POW camp in Warner Springs Ca. One of the things they did to us was put us in these amall boxes and you had no idea how long you would be there.........What happens after time is your legs and feet fall asleep and when they finally let you out (I was in the box for 45 minutes) you can't stand......Now that was torture

It really doesn't matter. By both strict definition and by the way it is defined in the United Nations Convention Against Torture. I really don't see any way around that.

Also, you can't tell that someone leans "far to the left" based on their answer to this question.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

There are some pretty far right wing people who voted Yes NP. Much further to the right than you in fact. Just because some one disagrees with you on an issue does not make them left wing.

Like I told Boo, check it out you might be surprised.......I did not think you disagreed with Obama on anything.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Like I told Boo, check it out you might be surprised.......

I did, and if you had you might be surprised. I see morethan one far right winger who voted that waterboarding is torture.

I did not think you disagreed with Obama on anything.

You would think wrong then.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

NP uses the word "left" like it's an insult to not be a homophobic backwoods racist who runs to a forum and posts every Rush Limbaugh talking point one hears. ****, if thinking waterboarding is "torture" means you're part of the left, I'll welcome any Conservative who doesn't support it with open arms.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I did, and if you had you might be surprised. I see morethan one far right winger who voted that waterboarding is torture.



You would think wrong then.

There are exceptions, I am talking about the huge majority....There are actually libs who are pro life but the huge majority are not........


What issue do you disagree with him on?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

NP uses the word "left" like it's an insult to not be a homophobic backwoods racist who runs to a forum and posts every Rush Limbaugh talking point one hears. ****, if thinking waterboarding is "torture" means you're part of the left, I'll welcome any Conservative who doesn't support it with open arms.

Just check the people who voted......
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Look at how the vote went left vs right and with few exceptions you will find that the left thinks it torture and the right does not.

Like I said, who knew only the left had a moral compass. If you're correct (and I don't think you are), the right has no core values. No moral compass. Is that what you want to say?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

We agree then, it is ineffective.

you appear to be having problems with grammar lately.

This is where you try to play word games, hoping to hide the immorality of actually torturing people

not at all. regardless of what you believe about the morality of enhanced interrogation, the reality is that it produced a huge portion of our information on Al-Qaeda operations; allowing us to forestall major attacks before they occurred and engage in successful targeting of at-large Al-Qaeda trunk leadership.

I suggest any person who can pretend this wasn't torture lacks a moral core.

:shrug: I would suggest that using ad hominems is a poor debate strategy.

Apparently not as difficult as you think, as people have given misinformaiton often.

yes, the enemy will lie to you under interrogation. for a trained individual, the way to defeat that is to remove or severely mitigate their ability to do so effectively.

This is also where you try to misrepresnt what was said. Many find doing this dishonest. I said, and I've been specific, we used al Libi's information that we got under torture as part of our reasoning for going to war. "Curveball wasn't really interrogated. And the german's told us he was unreliable. But, when you want to go war, we're willing to use both. Same as using the heros in error of Chalibi's. But the FACT remains, we tortured, got wrong information, and used it.

Curveball was absolutely interrogated. Repeatedly and consistently over the course of at least two years. However, because he was in full control of his mental faculties at the time, he was able to sell a consistent falsehood, which was bought by both German and American analysts. It's worth noting that the Americans never interrogated Curveball - we took what the Germans told us about him at face value. Within the intelligence community this incident has become a major enabler for what is increasingly called "target-centric analysis", wherein the usual intelligence cycle is foregone for a more collaborative effort built on consistent input from all players.

I love how you try to be dismissive without actually providing anything of substance.

you are right. that was dismissive. It was dismissive because it exposed unknowing ignorance of the interrogation process. It's like you have this mental image of the interrogator screaming a question again and again, and then when the guy fesses up and gives an answer, that's it.

You ask the same question dozens of times, in dozens of different ways. You background check background check background check, and you wait for a while and then you ask another series of questions that would have to have particular answers in order for the first answers to be true, and you make the story as complex and as easily falsifiable as possible in a dozen different ways, at a dozen different times.

It is exceedingly difficult if not virtually impossible to lie effectively to a well-trained interrogator over a long period of time when you aren't in comfort and don't have full and complete control over your mental faculties.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

BY all means CP, present this information gathered.

And no, he was not interrogated. He volunteered information as was question. The Germans were clear that he was unrealiable. We wanted to believe, so we ran with it.

And know, I understand the interrogation process as well or better than you. I say better because I step outside personal experience and review the literature as well. A person can be too close to something to see it clearly. I often think that is part of your problem. Your blind faith in ideology the other.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

We have probably had a poll on this subject before but we have a lot of new member so what do you think?
I think it is obviously, undebatably torture. I think the question should be whether certain forms of torture are acceptable to get important information. I think in certain circumstances, that answer is absolutely yes.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I think it is obviously, undebatably torture. I think the question should be whether certain forms of torture are acceptable to get important information. I think in certain circumstances, that answer is absolutely yes.

Are you proposing to have US and International law changes that would approve torture in certain circumstances as a legal means of intelligence gathering?

And what would be those certain circumstances that you would want torture used by other governments around the world?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Are you proposing to have US and International law changes that would approve torture in certain circumstances as a legal means of intelligence gathering?

And what would be those certain circumstances that you would want torture used by other governments around the world?
I don't know exactly. There'd have to be a lot of proof that the person actually had information, and that there was an impending disaster highly likely to cause significant loss of human life.

We don't live in the same type of world as when those rules were first put into play.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I don't know exactly. There'd have to be a lot of proof that the person actually had information, and that there was an impending disaster highly likely to cause significant loss of human life.

We don't live in the same type of world as when those rules were first put into play.

You would be for other countries legally being allowed to torture our soldiers or citizens under certain circumstances?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

There are exceptions, I am talking about the huge majority....There are actually libs who are pro life but the huge majority are not........


What issue do you disagree with him on?
Do you even realize that you are making a case against the Right?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

You would be for other countries legally being allowed to torture our soldiers or citizens under certain circumstances?
I don't see that it matters... Do you think Al Qaeda, Taliban, Fedayeen were like "maybe we shouldn't torture them...it just seems wrong"

I certainly don't think torture is something that should be common practice but I also think it is naive to say we should never use it under any circumstances. This is why countries have "Black Ops" they get to operate in that grey area and do things that might not sit well with Joe the Monday Morning Quarterback.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I don't see that it matters... Do you think Al Qaeda, Taliban, Fedayeen were like "maybe we shouldn't torture them...it just seems wrong"

I certainly don't think torture is something that should be common practice but I also think it is naive to say we should never use it under any circumstances. This is why countries have "Black Ops" they get to operate in that grey area and do things that might not sit well with Joe the Monday Morning Quarterback.

So then you have no problem with Iran's Revolutionary Guard or the KGB from the Soviet Union? Who decides that torture is ok in any given situation? This is not some Hollywood movie where its ok to act outside of the law. And the reason is because its against the law. You can try to rationalize torturing people that you somehow think that you know are guilty, which begs the question if you know so much about them why do you need to torture them?

And BTW the last time I checked Joe the Monday morning quarterback is no different than Joe the military man. The fact is that torture only sounds good to people naive enough to believe that they will not be tortured by the government if torture becomes a popular policy. Take the death penalty for example some innocents have been put to death by mistake. How many people have been waterboarded by mistake? Is there any way of knowing that figure?


And please do not confuse my hate of torture for me wanting all combatants being treated nicely. But our society has for a long time drawn the line at torture and have equated torture with Imperial Japan Nazi Germany the USSR Cuba Iran and those type of regimes, not the USA. All what torture does is give us a bad name and feeds Anti American behavior. IMHO torture is treasonous activity the should not be tolerated since it puts military personal in more danger if they should become captured. No I do not think that other countries will stop torturing our troops and citizens but by the US condoning torture what rational should we use to prosecute other countries for war crimes? And the enemy will most likely just rationalize that if its ok for the US to torture us...


And they wont stop at waterboarding.
 
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