View Poll Results: Do you think water boarding is torture?

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  • Yes

    114 77.55%
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Thread: Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]

  1. #51
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    Define "effective". It's useful for extracting information, absolutely. You just have to be mindful of the fact that they may be lying and should act accordingly. As such, generally, only information that's verifiable is of much use. For example,

    "Where is the bomb hidden?"

    "ouch. under seat 16F at the stadium."

    Then you go have a guy check under seat 16F at the stadium for the bomb. If he was telling the truth, then you diffused the bomb. If he was lying, not a big deal. You don't just go bomb some random house because a guy being tortured said osama was hiding there. You treat the information as a potential lead and verify it first.
    There is only dubious anecdotal evidence it produces any useful information. As has been pointed out, despite decades of use, there is still no scientific evidence that torture produces useful information.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #52
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    It's not that simple. Direct questions are generally avoided, because it gives the POW control of the interrogation.
    dude. it was a deliberately over-simplified example.

  3. #53
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    He put an end to us knowing about it.
    More unsubstantiated opinion?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  4. #54
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Dubious anecdotal evidence is all? Looks like the author had it right. Good reason to put an end to the practice.

    Thank you President Obama!

    How are you going to say all I have is anecdotal evidence, when that's all your evidence is? Plus, he didn't end it, he prohibited it. The CIA still holds an unknown number of detainees at facilities called Black Sites. The locations of which, and activities preformed within are unknown, even to Obama. I think it's safe to say that they aren't making cotton candy.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    How are you going to say all I have is anecdotal evidence, when that's all your evidence is?
    That was the author's point, all we have is dubious anecdotal evidence it is effective for providing useful information, despite decades of use and statistics.

    Plus, he didn't end it, he prohibited it.
    And the difference between ending it and prohibiting it is?

    The CIA still holds an unknown number of detainees at facilities called Black Sites. The locations of which, and activities preformed within are unknown, even to Obama. I think it's safe to say that they aren't making cotton candy.
    You realize there are interrogation methods other than torture, correct? So, other than your imagination, what evidence do you have that the US is still torturing prisoners?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    There is only dubious anecdotal evidence it produces any useful information. As has been pointed out, despite decades of use, there is still no scientific evidence that torture produces useful information.
    Well, how would one even gather scientific evidence that supports or refutes the effectiveness of torture? Conducting a study in which you torture subjects is obviously out of the question. And compiling historical information on how often information obtained via torture turned out to be useful or not useful seems equally unlikely; since torture is largely conducted behind closed doors I doubt anybody would keep such incriminating records and even if they did exist obtaining such records would be difficult if not impossible.

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_recruit View Post
    Well, how would one even gather scientific evidence that supports or refutes the effectiveness of torture? Conducting a study in which you torture subjects is obviously out of the question. And compiling historical information on how often information obtained via torture turned out to be useful or not useful seems equally unlikely; since torture is largely conducted behind closed doors I doubt anybody would keep such incriminating records and even if they did exist obtaining such records would be difficult if not impossible.
    If you you have 10,000 instances of torture over the decades of its use by the US, and 7,000 of those produced useful information, you would have evidence that torture is an effective means of getting information. Where is that evidence? If simply recording the accuracy of the practice is too shameful, than it is a certainty that the practice is too shameful for the US to continue. I very much admire the president for ending the ineffective and shameful practice!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    And the difference between ending it and prohibiting it is?
    Did prohibiting narcotics make them go away?



    You realize there are interrogation methods other than torture, correct? So, other than your imagination, what evidence do you have that the US is still torturing prisoners?
    Yes, and I've stated that. If you think prohibiting torture means the CIA doesn't do it anymore, you don't know anything about the CIA. Project BLUEBIRD and Project CHATTER are the beginnings of the CIA's long history of interrogation by torture programs. It was followed by Project ARTICHOKE, which introduced the experimentation of different chemicals, including getting people addicted to morphine, and hypnosis on subjects. This evolved into projects MKDELTA MKULTRA and MKNAOMI, which were very illegal then and now, and also brought about the introduction of LSD and very horrible torture techniques (including waterboarding and electroshock) using orphans, prostitutes, and abductees both here in the US, and overseas. After a leak, it was halted in 1975, but that didn't stop them from conducting MKCHICKWIT, and MKOFTEN. While still conducting research on the effects of different chemicals in torture and interrogation, MKOFTEN allegedly included research into psychics and telekinesis. Fast forward to 2004, they're still doing the same ****, and you honestly think they're going to stop now because Obama said "we don't do that"? We've been doing that since the end of WWII.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    Did prohibiting narcotics make them go away?

    There is a chain of command in the military unlike that in civilian life. Following orders is strictly enforced in the military. What makes you such a big proponent of torture, without any evidence that is effective? I would have thought a Libertarian would be opposed to torture.




    Yes, and I've stated that. If you think prohibiting torture means the CIA doesn't do it anymore, you don't know anything about the CIA.
    Project BLUEBIRD and Project CHATTER are the beginnings of the CIA's long history of interrogation by torture programs. It was followed by Project ARTICHOKE, which introduced the experimentation of different chemicals, including getting people addicted to morphine, and hypnosis on subjects. This evolved into projects MKDELTA MKULTRA and MKNAOMI, which were very illegal then and now, and also brought about the introduction of LSD and very horrible torture techniques (including waterboarding and electroshock) using orphans, prostitutes, and abductees both here in the US, and overseas. After a leak, it was halted in 1975, but that didn't stop them from conducting MKCHICKWIT, and MKOFTEN. While still conducting research on the effects of different chemicals in torture and interrogation, MKOFTEN allegedly included research into psychics and telekinesis. Fast forward to 2004, they're still doing the same ****, and you honestly think they're going to stop now because Obama said "we don't do that"? We've been doing that since the end of WWII.


    Because it was allowed through the chain of command. No doubt we have much to be ashamed of in our past, but again I ask, other than your imagination, what is your evidence do you have that torture is still being carried out by the US today?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Their is a chain of command in the military unlike that in civilian life. Following orders is strictly enforced in the military. What makes you such a big proponent of torture, without any evidence that is effective? I would have thought a Libertarian would be opposed to torture.
    The CIA isn't the Military. I don't think it should be abolished because it does work in certain circumstances, and war is not the time to go soft.

    Because it was allowed through the chain of command. No doubt we have much to be ashamed of in our past, but again I ask, other than your imagination, what is your evidence do you have that torture is still being carried out by the US today?
    What proof do I have that they still conduct torture? Because they continued to do it for 37 years after being expressly forbidden to continue these projects by Congress. The only detainee camps that are known about are Guantanamo Bay, and Abu Ghraib, which are monitored. The unknown sites containing an unknown number of prisoners are not monitored or regulated, and what happens in those facilities is unknown. Given the CIA's long history of torture and human experimentation, what do you think they're doing in places where they have absolutely no oversight from Congress, the President, or even the Secretary of Defense?
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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