View Poll Results: Do you think water boarding is torture?

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Thread: Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]

  1. #541
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    There are documented cases where waterboarding was used and valuable intelligence was gained that saved American Lives...The one terrorist Kahliff (not sure of the spelling chirped like a bird when he was water boarded..........
    As noted above, don't just talk ****, back up your claim. I bet you can find anything but someone saying it. Nothing verifiable.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #542
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    With just a taste. And would have told them anything, true or not. Which makes it not very reliable.
    Torture only works for verifiable information and should only be employed in the absolutely most dire circumstances. If it's a lie, that is discovered and it gets worse. When the truth comes out, that is verified, lives are saved and it's over.

    Outside of television, there is really no such thing as a ticking bomb. To believe we'd have the right person, with the right information, with enough time requires a lot of willing suspension of disbelief. Not only that, verification takes time. So, lying will not only buy time, but cause us to waste time.
    In the immediate aftermath of 911, I feel that the 3 top terrorists in custody did have information the equivalent of a ticking time bomb. Those 3 people were definately mass murdering terrorists and they definately had verifiable info about on-going terrorist operations. We didn't know what was next, we didn't have a grasp on the situation - and they did. I feel it was justified and even necessary.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 08-19-12 at 01:08 AM.

  3. #543
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Torture only works for verifiable information and should only be employed in the absolutely most dire circumstances. If it's a lie, that is discovered and it gets worse. When the truth comes out, that is verified, lives are saved and it's over.
    As i noted, verification takes time. So a lie is as good as not saying anything. And we know they have lied (look up al Libi). And the lie won the day. Andf I have seen not one shread of verifiable evidience that any lives have been saved. Feel free to present any, but I do hope you do better than what has been presented in the past and shown flawed.

    In the immediate aftermath of 911, I feel that the 3 top terrorists in custody did have information the equivalent of a ticking time bomb. Those 3 people were definately mass murdering terrorists and they definately had verifiable info about on-going terrorist operations. We didn't know what was next, we didn't have a grasp on the situation - and they did. I feel it was justified and even necessary.
    There was nothing we could have tortured them for. In fact, all we needed to stop them was the FBI and CIA saring information. Torture wasn't required. I think some over react out of fear. I also think Bush used that fear to do some pretty stupid ****. I think better of us, and believe we have the courage to keep our heads and do what is not only moral, but more effective.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  4. #544
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    There are documented cases where waterboarding was used and valuable intelligence was gained that saved American Lives...The one terrorist Kahliff (not sure of the spelling chirped like a bird when he was water boarded..........
    More Bull **** from you....why should we expect anything different....another day....more NP BS.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

  5. #545
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    More Bull **** from you....why should we expect anything different....another day....more NP BS.
    THe truth hurts my left wing friend.
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

  6. #546
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Andf I have seen not one shread of verifiable evidience that any lives have been saved...

    Torture wasn't required. I think some over react out of fear. I also think Bush used that fear to do some pretty stupid ****. I think better of us, and believe we have the courage to keep our heads and do what is not only moral, but more effective.
    I think you are operating from a premise of ignorance and using that to convict an established target. It will probably be decades before the classified information gained is released. But, we did have several senators (including the chair of the intelligence committee?) make such claims. I believe that your assessment is inaccurate.

    I'll agree to disagree, and we'll see what happened in a couple/few decades. In the meantime, I'm ok with waterboarding 3 top people for verifiable information that likely saved lives (I mean, c'mon, they were terrorists, it's not like they had information about anything other than killing). You can continue to claim that it was pointless, etc, and it's not like any secret documents regarding it are coming out anytime soon. I think you're jumping to judgement, based on ignorance. I'll give a western liberal democracy the benefit of the doubt on something so limited (3 top people) and in the aftermath of 9/11.

    Note, that does not mean that I advocate Iran's massive torture system. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to a western liberal democracy that only waterboarded 3 known top terrorists in the aftermath of the largest terrorist attack in history. I'm not advocating torture in general.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 08-19-12 at 02:22 PM.

  7. #547
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I think you are operating from a premise of ignorance and using that to convict an established target. It will probably be decades before the classified information gained is released. But, we did have several senators (including the chair of the intelligence committee?) make such claims. I believe that your assessment is inaccurate.

    I'll agree to disagree, and we'll see what happened in a couple/few decades. In the meantime, I'm ok with waterboarding 3 top people for verifiable information that likely saved lives (I mean, c'mon, they were terrorists, it's not like they had information about anything other than killing). You can continue to claim that it was pointless, etc, and it's not like any secret documents regarding it are coming out anytime soon. I think you're jumping to judgement, based on ignorance. I'll give a western liberal democracy the benefit of the doubt on something so limited (3 top people) and in the aftermath of 9/11.

    Note, that does not mean that I advocate Iran's massive torture system. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to a western liberal democracy that only waterboarded 3 known top terrorists in the aftermath of the largest terrorist attack in history. I'm not advocating torture in general.
    No. Many governments use the we can't tell you to hide their sins. The fact is, it is easy enough to provide verifiable evidence where we got inaccurate information and acted on it. It is easy enough top show verifiable evidence that we tortured the wrong people. We should be able to produce some verifiable evidence of success if some exists. It is unlikely that any really exists, especially some that could not or did not come about through other means.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #548
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    THe truth hurts my left wing friend.
    You wouldn't know truth if it walked up and kissed you on the face NP....truth is...there isn't one documented case that shows that we have ever gotten ANY useful information from torture methods....in fact, there are studies that show exactly the opposite.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

  9. #549
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No. Many governments use the we can't tell you to hide their sins.
    So? I already specified that I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt in this specific situation. I didn't claim to give the benefit of the doubt to many governments or any other instances. It's not like I generally accept the 'secret' excuse from governments, so your comment serves only to obfuscate.

    The fact is, it is easy enough to provide verifiable evidence where we got inaccurate information and acted on it.
    I don't believe so.

    It is easy enough top show verifiable evidence that we tortured the wrong people.
    I don't believe so.

    We should be able to produce some verifiable evidence of success if some exists.
    Secret information is not readily released.

    It is unlikely that any really exists, especially some that could not or did not come about through other means.
    I disagree. Given the testimony by members of the Senate intelligence committee, I'd say the evidence is there but is not being released yet.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 08-19-12 at 03:00 PM.

  10. #550
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I don't believe so.
    You'd be wrong. Look up al Libi.


    I don't believe so.
    Again, wrong. We have the from Canada with the wrong name, and the cab driver we killed in Afghanistan. verifiable, and not what we thought they were.



    Secret information is not readily released.
    Again, the other was easily released. And they tried hard to throw out stuff that was shown false (that too is documented and easily verifiable - see both the Brooklyn Bridge blow torch terrorist and the 2nd wave 9/11)

    I disagree. Given the testimony by members of the Senate intelligence committee, I'd say the evidence is there but is not being released yet.
    And I suggest easy to say, harder to prove.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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