View Poll Results: Do you think water boarding is torture?

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Thread: Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]

  1. #451
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Not that I agree completely with what NP said, I agree even less with you. Regardless of what we do, our captured servicemembers will be tortured and killed.
    What DD fails to understand is our enemies don't play by the same rules we do.....I don't understand why he just does not get it when they show terrorists cutting off our soldiers heads.........
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    Sorry, but to this I say "Grow up and face reality".

    Kindly name for me a single Allied soldier that is being held by the Taliban or al-Qaeda that has been given a single visit by the Red Crescent. Give me a report of a single Allied who was held POW who has not either dissapeared into a black hole with occasional videos surfacing with visible evidence of violence, or turned up as a mutilated corpse.

    This stupid claim that "this will cause our men and women to be tortured" is just absolute nonsense. Because it has been going on for decades.



    Col. Higgins, member of the UN Peacekeeping mission, was captured, held prisoner for over a year and constantly tortured, then his execution video taped and released to the media. And this kind of behavior has been going on for decades.

    Tell me, what could they be doing that is worse? Can you name a single Prisoner that our enemies have held that has been visited by International Authorities? Has a single one of them been released? Have their bodies ever been turned over in appropriate ways (through neutral intermediaries), instead of being thrown into garbage dumps decapitated?

    Grow up and face reality. They could not be doing much worse then they already are. I know guys who served in the grunts downrange. Generally it is a repeat of WWII in the Pacific, where they get promises from their buddies that they will be shot by their own comrades rather then be taken alive by that scum.


    You are right and he can't......
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  3. #453
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Moderator's Warning:
    Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]Personal attacks, namecalling, over the top posting, telling some one to grow up, and so on, all needs to end now.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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  4. #454
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    So, they read about it too. Gotcha.
    More than that. But, you have offer nothing that matches even reading about it.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Here's what you miss, as the military has made the same argument he does. In the future we may fight a different enemy, one that had used proper restraint in the past. Now they don't have to as we have said such rule of law doesn't matter.
    Actually, the military makes the exact opposite case. They insist that everybody who goes downrange carefully follows each and every aspect of the Geneva and Hague conventions, and that we do not do a single thing wrong, or face Court Martial.

    And one thing I tell everybody not to do is to read into what I am saying. I say things exactly as I see them, no hiding things between the lines. In no way am I saying that we should not follow all the Laws of Land Warfare. It is just that if a few of them are bent a bit, you will find no tears coming from me. And trust me when I say that soldiers fighting are going to generally follow the same behavior, reguardless of who their enemy is. However, during the conflict they will start to change their behavior to match what they are facing.

    For an example, look at WWII. In the Pacific, the Japanese were known for almost never taking prisoners. They might take them when a unit surrendered, but did not take them as individuals. In the instances where they did they were pretty universally tortured for whatever could be extracted, then executed. And during and after battles, it was not unusual for the Marines to find mutilated bodies of their comrades inside of Japanese positions. So is it any wonder that they often formed suicide pacts, and would save one bullet for themselves in case they might end up captured?

    Then compare this to those ifghting in Germany and Italy. Yes, there were some atrocities, but these were exceptions, not the rule. All side in that Theatre were generally very careful to follow all of the rules regarding POWs. And such "suicide pacts" were almost unheard of.

    Then less then a decade later many of these sames Soldiers and Marines that fought in the Pacific and Europe were fighting in Korea. Here the enemy generally followed the rules, and such attrocities did not happen.

    I am not talking about propaganda here, but historical facts. Yet the Taliban and the groups that make it up are pretty much acting the same way that they did against the Soviets before, and the British, and every other invader. If you look around there are plenty of graphic videos of Soviet soldiers being executed and beheaded in Afghanistan.

    And if you question this, I welcome anybody to read up on John Masters, a British Army Officer who wrote extensively of the region, including the 3 Anglo-Afghan Wars. There is a great biography of him, written by author John Clay.

    War for the Pathans [Pashtuns] was an honourable, exciting and manly exercise, in which each succeeding generation needed to prove itself, but war was also ruthless; no mercy was shown and none was expected. Neither side aimed to take prisoners. The Pathans customarily mutilated and then beheaded any wounded or dead who fell into their hands. Women often carried out these operations. A well-known torture was called the Thousand Cuts, whereby flesh woulds were newly made and grass and thorns pushed into them so that they would hurt horribly. A prisoner might be pegged out on the ground and his jaw forcibly opened with a stick so that he could not swallow, then women would urinate in his mouth until he drowned. Frank Baines, who served on the North-West Frontier and later with Masters in Burma, put it more crudely:* ‘If you got captured, you were not only killed in a lively and imaginative manner, you were carved up and quartered and had your cock cut off and stuffed in your mouth for good measure.’
    Amazon.com: John Masters: A Regimented Life (9780718129453): John Clay: Books

    So no, the Taliban are simply following their culture on the treatment of prisoners, and nothing we or anybody else do will ever change that. And no amount of nonsense propaganda will change that. Now if they treated prisoners well then only changed after things were done to them, I might think there is something there. But as I said, we have held hundreds of prisoners, and released hundreds of them. We give access to International Authorities, including the Red Crescent to those we hold. Do they do the same?

    So if some are made to wear panties on their head, I will not shed any tears, nor call it a "war crime". And when people can't tell the difference between these actions and real war crimes, I have to wonder at their humanity.

    I also apologize for the graphicness of the quote above, I did not write it, that is directly out of the book.
    Last edited by Oozlefinch; 08-10-12 at 07:45 PM.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    Actually, the military makes the exact opposite case. They insist that everybody who goes downrange carefully follows each and every aspect of the Geneva and Hague conventions, and that we do not do a single thing wrong, or face Court Martial.

    And one thing I tell everybody not to do is to read into what I am saying. I say things exactly as I see them, no hiding things between the lines. In no way am I saying that we should not follow all the Laws of Land Warfare. It is just that if a few of them are bent a bit, you will find no tears coming from me. And trust me when I say that soldiers fighting are going to generally follow the same behavior, reguardless of who their enemy is. However, during the conflict they will start to change their behavior to match what they are facing.

    For an example, look at WWII. In the Pacific, the Japanese were known for almost never taking prisoners. They might take them when a unit surrendered, but did not take them as individuals. In the instances where they did they were pretty universally tortured for whatever could be extracted, then executed. And during and after battles, it was not unusual for the Marines to find mutilated bodies of their comrades inside of Japanese positions. So is it any wonder that they often formed suicide pacts, and would save one bullet for themselves in case they might end up captured?

    Then compare this to those ifghting in Germany and Italy. Yes, there were some atrocities, but these were exceptions, not the rule. All side in that Theatre were generally very careful to follow all of the rules regarding POWs. And such "suicide pacts" were almost unheard of.

    Then less then a decade later many of these sames Soldiers and Marines that fought in the Pacific and Europe were fighting in Korea. Here the enemy generally followed the rules, and such attrocities did not happen.

    I am not talking about propaganda here, but historical facts. Yet the Taliban and the groups that make it up are pretty much acting the same way that they did against the Soviets before, and the British, and every other invader. If you look around there are plenty of graphic videos of Soviet soldiers being executed and beheaded in Afghanistan.

    And if you question this, I welcome anybody to read up on John Masters, a British Army Officer who wrote extensively of the region, including the 3 Anglo-Afghan Wars. There is a great biography of him, written by author John Clay.



    Amazon.com: John Masters: A Regimented Life (9780718129453): John Clay: Books

    So no, the Taliban are simply following their culture on the treatment of prisoners, and nothing we or anybody else do will ever change that. And no amount of nonsense propaganda will change that. Now if they treated prisoners well then only changed after things were done to them, I might think there is something there. But as I said, we have held hundreds of prisoners, and released hundreds of them. We give access to International Authorities, including the Red Crescent to those we hold. Do they do the same?

    So if some are made to wear panties on their head, I will not shed any tears, nor call it a "war crime". And when people can't tell the difference between these actions and real war crimes, I have to wonder at their humanity.

    I also apologize for the graphicness of the quote above, I did not write it, that is directly out of the book.
    You may have misunderstood what I said the military argues. I said they argue to follow the rules.

    And while it's depraved and sad that anyone would put panties on someone's head, that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about waterboarding, which has always been called torture and illegal. And other more harsh treatment which did take a at least a couple of lives. So, trying to pretend that there is only something that is mildly degrading is disingenueous.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  7. #457
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You may have misunderstood what I said the military argues. I said they argue to follow the rules.

    And while it's depraved and sad that anyone would put panties on someone's head, that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about waterboarding, which has always been called torture and illegal. And other more harsh treatment which did take a at least a couple of lives. So, trying to pretend that there is only something that is mildly degrading is disingenueous.
    And if somebody might have key intelligence upon which acting on it in a timely manner might save lives, I say stick them in the water.

    As I said, I do not care much if the rules are bent a bit on occasion, when the opposition we are fighting has no compulsion to follow the rules whatsoever. If we were fighting the Iranian Army (which believe it or not generally were very careful to follow the rules), then I would agree that such behavior is not appropriate. But against the Taliban and their ilk, I have very little sympathy, consideration, or even care. And they only themselves to blame in this.
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oozlefinch View Post
    And if somebody might have key intelligence upon which acting on it in a timely manner might save lives, I say stick them in the water.

    As I said, I do not care much if the rules are bent a bit on occasion, when the opposition we are fighting has no compulsion to follow the rules whatsoever. If we were fighting the Iranian Army (which believe it or not generally were very careful to follow the rules), then I would agree that such behavior is not appropriate. But against the Taliban and their ilk, I have very little sympathy, consideration, or even care. And they only themselves to blame in this.
    May, might, if, words that all too often mean, don't know and infringe on the rights of the innocent. Odds of having such a person are nearly nonexistent. And what we do here will effect what happens when and if we do battle with any nation's army. It's not that we can follow the rules with one and not the other. Actions have consequences.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #459
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    May, might, if, words that all too often mean, don't know and infringe on the rights of the innocent. Odds of having such a person are nearly nonexistent. And what we do here will effect what happens when and if we do battle with any nation's army. It's not that we can follow the rules with one and not the other. Actions have consequences.
    Can you prove that? No, you can't. Sorry, but I debate based upon facts and past events, not conjecture. And that is all you have.

    Imagine we got into a war with the Soviets next year. Do you believe they will generally follow the rules? I do, because they are professionals and know how the game is played. Will they worry about us following the rules? Not really, because they know that we also are professionals and follow the rules.

    However, in this case we are not fighting a professional force. Not only that, but a force that actually accepts such behaviors as what they do as "routine". So do you really think they believe waterboarding to be "torture"? If anything else, it is probably more effective because they can't understand why on earth we would even bother to keep them prisoner in the first place, since they would not do so if the tables are turned.

    I have provided sources, can you do the same for your claims?
    War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. - John Stuart Mill

  10. #460
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Not that I agree completely with what NP said, I agree even less with you. Regardless of what we do, our captured servicemembers will be tortured and killed.
    I'm not just talking about terrorists....I'm talking about any nation that we might be at war with. When you stoop to the level of your enemy and engage in torture, it opens our men and women of the military up to the danger of being subjected to it....afterall, if we are a nation that tortures in violation of the generva convention, it is kind of hard for us to take the high ground. I think we owe our men and women of the military at LEAST that.

    As I was always taught growing up....its always better to take the high road. When you lower your values and morals in order to obtain a single victory....it cheapens us.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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