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Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]

Do you think water boarding is torture?

  • Total voters
    128
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Waterboarding is a fine line between uncomfortable interrogation and torture. However, the fact that America had the UN define it as torture many many years ago means that it is torture. And as we all know, despite the global denial, what we say goes. But who cares? Does it really matter? At this point in history, no power on earth can do a thing without our involvement. France and the rest of the rabble drug us through the gutter chastizing us for our boldness to take down Saddam Hussein once and for all....did that stop them from begging our participation over Libya? And when it comes to the European financial crisis, would it stop them from reaching a point where they are begging us for a financial handout? Wth China and Russia blocking UN efforts with Iran and Syria do people actually think nations in Europe are the opposing side? Even Europeans seek American intervention just to legitimize an opposing force, which is why they hate when we dare to dip a toe in the depraved waters they purified throughout history.

Oh, but waterboarding a few individuals (on record) in the light of France publicly torturing tens of thousands of Tunisians make us evil? I guess it does to Leftists who can't fathom a world where only America is guilty and even more so if we dared to even think about doing what our allies have perfected.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Paratrooper said:
While I said yes, I think the average persons idea of "torture" has evolved quite a bit.
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Sure it has. Spanking your child is child abuse now too. Is it a coincidence that shooting up high schools and theaters came after the politically correct idea of discipline?

Protecting a nation like ours, which flies in the face of history and has accumulated mass enemies along the way, takes being loved and being feared. We have lost our idea of what it takes to be feared. We are the nation that dropped two atomic bombs and brought an empire to its knees in a part of a war that consumed more global space than any other in history. We are the nation that survived to the ideological title bout with one other and watched them internally combust as they tried to compete with us globally. We are the nation that perfected religious harmony and saw the world reach and cling to our culture. We lead the world in modern culture while all others have surrendered their global cultural contributions to history.

But today we fool ourselves into thinking that such things will always be if we only pamper our enemies and share. Even China seeks to join with the system we created. We are the ones too afraid to be who we are. And it comes down to people being being instructed to be ashamed of their nation and to be humble to inferiors. It's our lack of understanding into ourselves that makes us fear the rise of China....makes us fear terrorist organizations who rely on media outlets to convince the world that they matter and that they win with every terrorized and blown up civilian.

We have won in history because phrases like "at what cost" stayed in the classroom of ethics and philosophy. Phrases like "we have to put our house in order first" are for cowards who seek excuses to hide in the basement because confronting the neighbor who screws up you side of the lawn mighht hit you. "At what cost" didn't stop the allies from bombing out Dresden and us from bombing out Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We talk of the "Greatest Generation," but pretend that that they won and achieved greatness by not punishing the enemy to victory. Today we coddle our way and cause more death as we preach about how moral we are. We self-flaggelate and offer global apologies for three terrorist waterboarding cases while the enemy slaughters people we are supposed to protect.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Navy Pride said:
We have probably had a poll on this subject before but we have a lot of new member so what do you think?
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News reporters would not subject themselves to actual torture techniques in order to prove that it is a torture technique. Therefore my answer is no. Now, if you can give me an example of an American news media member who subjected themselves to being buried with just a hole for breathing for 24 hours, or having a car battery hooked up to their nipples, or having extremities cut off, or having their finger nails pulled off to prove that those techniques are torture, I might change my opinion on water boarding. Any takers?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Paratrooper said:
While I said yes, I think the average persons idea of "torture" has evolved quite a bit.

Now getting less than 8 hours of sleep is torture, or not getting meals that meet your dietary preference, etc. These days people would consider being tickled or being forced to listen to Justin Bieber as torture.
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I hate to say this but Justin Bieber's newest stuff isn't so bad.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Jetboogieman said:
It is most certainly torture.

Two things.

1. The idea that torture never works is ludicrous.

2. The idea it's always nessecary is equally ludicrous.

Now, I am of the persuasion that those who don't consider it torture, do so in part, whether they realize it or not to save face. If its not torture, then they don't have to feel bad their nation engaged in it.

However it is torture and if thats what you feel you have to do to defend your nation, then you will do it anyway, just stop skirting around the issue, just say it outright "we will torture people to defend ourselves".

Stop trying to pretend you have the moral high ground.
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We should rarely deal in absolutes. But there is an effectiveness scale. And largely, torture has problems when it comes to being effective (unless you want confessions because nearly everyone will confess, quilty or not).

However, I completely agree with the rest. When we tried to excuse waterboarding and other measures we completely lost any pretense of holding the moral high ground.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

StillBallin75 said:
I hate to say this but Justin Bieber's newest stuff isn't so bad.
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I wouldn't know. You must have teenage girls that live with you. Please say you have teenage girls that live with you.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Water boarding is a form of therapy... yes... definitely therapy.

If it were torture, we would call it water torture, and not water boarding.


There are times when words make all the difference, for all intents and purposes.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Boo Radley said:
We should rarely deal in absolutes. But there is an effectiveness scale. And largely, torture has problems when it comes to being effective (unless you want confessions because nearly everyone will confess, quilty or not).

However, I completely agree with the rest. When we tried to excuse waterboarding and other measures we completely lost any pretense of holding the moral high ground.
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I'm so tired of this conversation about waterboarding and higher moral ground. "Torture" is always unreliable. It always has been. The only thing it guarantees is that the victim wants to feel less pain. We are powerful enough in terms of culture, economy, political and military (the latter being the only thing American politicians recognize anymore) that we do not have to resort to what has been historically defined as "torture."

But the moral high ground has never been lost, despite the wishes of some of our allies, who in turn convinced enough Americans how evil they were. Did we have the moral high ground with Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Did we have the moral high ground as we made our dictators more powerful than the Soviet Union's dictators? And did a few waterboarding cases and few speeches make us lose the moaral high ground enough to stop France and others from begging us to lead and provide over 80 percent of the effort over Libya? Do not the Allied side of the world still seek our muscle and microphone to lead and direct global affairs?

Until we become Nazi Germany, Tunisia torturing France, the radical, extremist, terrorist breeding Middle East, oppressive China and Russia....we will not lose the "moral higher ground." Though, the described ake it quite the effort to convince us that we are exactly like them don't they? It's up to us to surrender our identities to what they need in order to lift themselves above the garbage they perfected.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Sig said:
Water boarding is a form of therapy... yes... definitely therapy.

If it were torture, we would call it water torture, and not water boarding.


There are times when words make all the difference, for all intents and purposes.
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LOL - sure, all in the name. LOL That's what we pin everything on; terminology. Indeed!
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

MSgt said:
I'm so tired of this conversation about waterboarding and higher moral ground. "Torture" is always unreliable. It always has been. The only thing it guarantees is that the victim wants to feel less pain. We are powerful enough in terms of culture, economy, political and military (the latter being the only thing American politicians recognize anymore) that we do not have to resort to what has been historically defined as "torture."

But the moral high ground has never been lost, despite the wishes of some of our allies, who in turn convinced enough Americans how evil they were. Did we have the moral high ground with Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Did we have the moral high ground as we made our dictators more powerful than the Soviet Union's dictators? And did a few waterboarding cases and few speeches make us lose the moaral high ground enough to stop France and others from begging us to lead and provide over 80 percent of the effort over Libya? Do not the Allied side of the world still seek our muscle and microphone to lead and direct global affairs?

Until we become Nazi Germany, Tunisia torturing France, the radical, extremist, terrorist breeding Middle East, oppressive China and Russia....we will not lose the "moral higher ground." Though, the described ake it quite the effort to convince us that we are exactly like them don't they? It's up to us to surrender our identities to what they need in order to lift themselves above the garbage they perfected.
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I'm not sure how it's possible for us to lose the moral high ground if, referencing all the examples you've noted above, we've never really even possessed it to begin with. International politics is an inherently amoral game.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Sig said:
Water boarding is a form of therapy... yes... definitely therapy.

If it were torture, we would call it water torture, and not water boarding.


There are times when words make all the difference, for all intents and purposes.
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LOL that's your argument? That the name makes all the difference? Well hell's bells I guess North Korea really IS a Democratic Republic that exists for the People! Why call it anything else?

And to your point, it IS sometimes referred to as a form of water torture.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Aunt Spiker said:
LOL - sure, all in the name. LOL That's what we pin everything on; terminology. Indeed!
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Don't we? I can use a deer rifle with a scope to kill a person, but calling it a "SNIPER" rifle makes it different to the ignorant right? How about an "ASSAULT" rifle that doesn't fire automatically? The word "ASSAULT" changes it all together to the ignorant. Without the word "ASSAULT," it's just a rifle that fires one round at a time....just like a revolver. And "Greatest Generation" allows people to dismiss nuclear bombs on civilian cities, right?

It's always in the terminology. Ask any politician that relies on your vote.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

MSgt said:
I wouldn't know. You must have teenage girls that live with you. Please say you have teenage girls that live with you.
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Can't knock it till you've tried it.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

MSgt said:
Don't we? I can use a deer rifle with a scope to kill a person, but calling it a "SNIPER" rifle makes it different to the ignorant right? How about an "ASSAULT" rifle that doesn't fire automatically? The word "ASSAULT" changes it all together to the ignorant. Without the word "ASSAULT," it's just a rifle that fires one round at a time....just like a revolver. And "Greatest Generation" allows people to dismiss nuclear bombs on civilian cities, right?

It's always in the terminology. Ask any politician that relies on your vote.
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I think her point was that words shape perception, not necessarily reality. Something isn't NOT torture simply because it doesn't have torture in its name. That was her point.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

StillBallin75 said:
I'm not sure how it's possible for us to lose the moral high ground if, referencing all the examples you've noted above, we've never really even possessed it to begin with. International politics is an inherently amoral game.
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Exactly. Our only preservation is that we don't enslave and plant the American flag. And that we run a nation truly about liberty and political expression.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

StillBallin75 said:
I think her point was that words shape perception, not necessarily reality. Something isn't NOT torture simply because it doesn't have torture in its name. That was her point.
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Oh. Then she and I would be in agreement. Don't I feel like the ass. However, I think she was a little bit dependent on the words, not the action, as a point too.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Jetboogieman said:
It is most certainly torture.

Two things.

1. The idea that torture never works is ludicrous.

2. The idea it's always nessecary is equally ludicrous.

Now, I am of the persuasion that those who don't consider it torture, do so in part, whether they realize it or not to save face. If its not torture, then they don't have to feel bad their nation engaged in it.

However it is torture and if thats what you feel you have to do to defend your nation, then you will do it anyway, just stop skirting around the issue, just say it outright "we will torture people to defend ourselves".

Stop trying to pretend you have the moral high ground.
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Okay. There are certain circumstances where I would consider the use of torture somewhat justifiable. The proverbial "suitcase nuke hidden in an american city and soon to blow and this terrorist we captured knows where it is" type of scenario, yes. Cases where thousands of American lives are riding on extracting information from a known terrorist, who has proven resistant to other methods of interrogation, perhaps.

I'll grant you the idea does not sit well with my conscience. It is a terrible, terrible thing to so treat another human being.... but then again, so is conspiring to commit mass murder on an epic scale.

To make it plain, I would stop short of officially endorsing it or ruling it acceptible in law... but in a pinch I'd hope someone was willing to do what had to be done, while others looked away long enough for the information to be extracted. This might mean someone has to take the fall for breaking the law, afterward.... but if they really did save thousands (or perhaps millions) of lives by so doing, I'd hope a jury would acquit them anyway.

This might seem like a self-contradictory position, but there are reasons behind it. On the one hand I don't want my nation using torture as a matter of official policy enshrined in law... that's a slippery slope I don't want us to go down... but on the other hand I don't put the human rights of a single known terrorist above the lives of thousands of Americans.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

MSgt said:
Don't we? I can use a deer rifle with a scope to kill a person, but calling it a "SNIPER" rifle makes it different to the ignorant right? How about an "ASSAULT" rifle that doesn't fire automatically? The word "ASSAULT" changes it all together to the ignorant. Without the word "ASSAULT," it's just a rifle that fires one round at a time....just like a revolver. And "Greatest Generation" allows people to dismiss nuclear bombs on civilian cities, right?

It's always in the terminology. Ask any politician that relies on your vote.
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So - all I have to do is call my breasts something else and suddenly they aren't breasts anymore? Are they really jugs - or knockers? Do they transform when they're called something else? No - they're still breasts. LOL

I have a hard time imagining that you take EVERY noun given to EVERY item quite so literally. . . that's like when my autistic son tried vehemently at age 5 to argue with me that a 'trashcan' is not the same as the 'garbage-bin' to the point of him being completely confused as to where to throw his trash vs his garbage . . . . objects, situations and items can have different terms that can be interchanged. That doesn't alter the PURPOSE of the item or activity.

That is how language WORKS.

The only reason why you're trying to tenaciously cling to an 'other' category is because legally we have to define things in exact, strict language for legal and legislative purposes so some stupid dip**** doesn't come along and go 'well you didn't clarify - so I can slip my illicit activity between the cracks' - like taking a semi-automatic and altering it just slightly so it's a fully-automatic and then believing that's ok.

To define what is torture: you have to define *what is torture* before you decide what qualifies . . . not the other way around. Very FEW methods of 'torture' are called 'torture' - according to your view torture is only so if it's in the name . . . so even the Iron Maiden or The Rack wasn't torture. The iron maiden was what then? LOL A sexy vixen come to steal away men's souls? LOL I'm sure all of the many victims of such torture would have wished.

Pressing
Pear of Anguish
Boiling
Hanging
Draw and Quarter


Geesh - all the many types of torture that just aren't torture because 'torture' isn't in the name.

In fact - 'Chinese water torture' and 'the chair of torture' are the only two types of defined 'torture' I can think of if you're being so literal about it . . . But I'm sure that being slowly roasted in The Bull was quite torturous. . . do I want to find out? No.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Goshin said:
Okay. There are certain circumstances where I would consider the use of torture somewhat justifiable. The proverbial "suitcase nuke hidden in an american city and soon to blow and this terrorist we captured knows where it is" type of scenario, yes. Cases where thousands of American lives are riding on extracting information from a known terrorist, who has proven resistant to other methods of interrogation, perhaps.

I'll grant you the idea does not sit well with my conscience. It is a terrible, terrible thing to so treat another human being.... but then again, so is conspiring to commit mass murder on an epic scale.

To make it plain, I would stop short of officially endorsing it or ruling it acceptible in law... but in a pinch I'd hope someone was willing to do what had to be done, while others looked away long enough for the information to be extracted. This might mean someone has to take the fall for breaking the law, afterward.... but if they really did save thousands (or perhaps millions) of lives by so doing, I'd hope a jury would acquit them anyway.

This might seem like a self-contradictory position, but there are reasons behind it. On the one hand I don't want my nation using torture as a matter of official policy enshrined in law... that's a slippery slope I don't want us to go down... but on the other hand I don't put the human rights of a single known terrorist above the lives of thousands of Americans.
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Totally agree with where you're coming from.

If it was that "nuke in the briefcase" scenario for any city in the world I would torture the only guy who knew myself to stop it.

In other cirucumstances The fear of course is always that an innocent person gets tortured.

I find torture morally wrong, however if a country is gonna do it, I'd prefer they cut the bull**** and do it and say they'll do it, at least we'll all know where we stand.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Aunt Spiker said:
So - all I have to do is call my breasts something else and suddenly they aren't breasts anymore? Are they really jugs - or knockers?
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See? You know it without acknowledging it. Breasts implies a body part. Likewise, does penis. However, when we start labeling them as "jugs and knockers" or cocks we start traveling into the pornographic realm where people begin to scowl. Does not Obama Care change the idea of Universal Health Care to many Americans? Does not political correctness change the atmosphere when it comes to describing people? All one had to do was change discipline and spanking to "abuse" and the entire idea was altered. You ever write up an award for an individual and pull out the thesaurus to give the award a greater meaning? And how different are the words "traitor" and "patriot?" Do I not have a duty to assassinate a one day leader who may seek to enslave Americans.....or is this treachery?

Don't pretend that descriptive words don't change the idea or the event. Anyone with a High School Diploma would agree.

aunt spiker said:
To define what is torture: you have to define *what is torture* before you decide what qualifies . . . not the other way around.
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Really? Some guy behind a desk doesn't decide what speeding is? Why is it dangerous to drive at 75 in some states and totally safe in others? Laws are simply made. Rules are simply made. It is the other way around. Prohibition? Thanks for the organized crime. People's idea of things often screw up what is actually good for people. Today we complain about legalized marijuana. At one time, the evils of drugs were clear to most. Laws are bull **** and the powers that be theme words around them to convince the ignorant and the idiots that they should represent them.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

MSgt said:
This is a *****'s approach to world affairs....

When we prevented the Allies from losing Word War I did we have our affairs in order? When we bankrolled the Allies, invaded Europe, and defeated Japan did we have our affairs in order? When we prevented the Soviet Communists from achieving global superiority over the West did we we have our affairs in order? And should we really be giving any good will to any starving or humanitarian disastered people when we have our own health care issues? With Native Americans being slaughtered, blacks enslaved, women without votes, blacks without civil rights, how dare we do anything for the world and protect our global interests, right? Your cry is a whine to abandon responsibility and good morality masked in superior self righteousness and it pains me that people like you benefit from people like me.

The point is that nobody anywhere, to include governments, ever have their affairs in order. Using it as an excuse to legitimize cowardice, near sightedness, and stupidity is as transparent today as it has been throughout history whenever a spectator citizen decided to pretend he is above others in the game....while benefitting from the "evil" of others who protect them.

At what poi nt will America have its affairs in order? Utopia? The Leftists depraved idea to excuse one of responsibility? The most powerful nation in history must cower behind shields and walls because Leftists, who should have been born elsewhere, cling to the bull**** dream that China and the Soviet Union proved a failure?

....or did this bit of boldness once again fly into deaf ears? Anything for the bull **** dream.
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It is the sane approach to world affairs as opposed to the insane approach. I'll go with the former, but you do as you wish. Its one of the reasons we elected Obama, and since Romney says he will return to the practice of torture, its one of the reasons we will reelect the president.

The freakin' cowboy approach is what got us into an almost decade long war with a country that was of no threat to us.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

MSgt said:
I'm so tired of this conversation about waterboarding and higher moral ground. "Torture" is always unreliable. It always has been. The only thing it guarantees is that the victim wants to feel less pain. We are powerful enough in terms of culture, economy, political and military (the latter being the only thing American politicians recognize anymore) that we do not have to resort to what has been historically defined as "torture."

But the moral high ground has never been lost, despite the wishes of some of our allies, who in turn convinced enough Americans how evil they were. Did we have the moral high ground with Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Did we have the moral high ground as we made our dictators more powerful than the Soviet Union's dictators? And did a few waterboarding cases and few speeches make us lose the moaral high ground enough to stop France and others from begging us to lead and provide over 80 percent of the effort over Libya? Do not the Allied side of the world still seek our muscle and microphone to lead and direct global affairs?

Until we become Nazi Germany, Tunisia torturing France, the radical, extremist, terrorist breeding Middle East, oppressive China and Russia....we will not lose the "moral higher ground." Though, the described ake it quite the effort to convince us that we are exactly like them don't they? It's up to us to surrender our identities to what they need in order to lift themselves above the garbage they perfected.
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We condemn a lot of places for using torture and rightly so. But when we resort to doing the same thing, to any degree, we do lose ground. A murder who kills one is in some measurment better than a murder who kills 12. But, neither holds the moral high ground. The second we began to debate whether waterboarding was torture, we slide off that ground.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Muhammed said:
I was waterboarded and I didn't find it to be painful to the point that I would say it was "excruciating". But of course that is subjective.
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Who did you terrorize?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Catawba said:
Who did you terrorize?
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It is possible if he was in the military he got a taste of it. The common mistake is to think that taste was equal to having it actually done, it a less friendly situation.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

The decision to use water boarding with the full and public blessing of the administration was a terrible decision whose consequences will be felt for generations.

There is such a thing as the use of torture on the battlefield. In Vietnam, yeah, we certainly 8used it and it was valuable. However, it was immediate, not filmed for youtube and the tortured party was dead shortly thereafter. If you were there, you know what I'm talking about, if not, use your imagination.

So, what's so bad about what we did under Bush? We set an example for the world to follow. We are a busy-body nation., Our soldiers are everywhere and inevitably one will be captured, tortured and we won't have much to say about that, will we?

Before our own misbehavior, the torturing of one of our own would have fulled us with outrage and we would strike back with full force and justification. Now, we have exposed our own troops to a terrible fate.

We have shown the world our evil side. We tortured prisoners whose guilt was undetermined and we did this long after their incarceration. You can't argue that we would get information that would save lives. Do you thing that someone in custody for years has current information? All we proved was that we were rotten, evil ****s who spit on the Geneva convention. How sad is that?

The ones who made this decision will not suffer the consequences. No, our young warriors will. To me, this is unforgivable. And typical.
 
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