View Poll Results: Do you think water boarding is torture?

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Thread: Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]

  1. #21
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    Depends on the situation. It's usually more effective to beat the answer out of someone.
    In some cases it may be, but it's reliability is questionable.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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  2. #22
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Does torture work?

    "Debates about the ethics of torture are all very well, but does it even work in the first place?

    "One of the interesting features of the torture debate is that many in the military and intelligence communities seem decidedly unconvinced about the effectiveness of torture. Ali Soufan, a former FBI special agent with considerable experience interrogating al-Qaeda operatives, pointed out in Time that:

    When they are in pain, people will say anything to get the pain to stop. Most of the time, they will lie, make up anything to make you stop hurting them. That means the information you're getting is useless.

    He isn't alone in this assessment – a number of former intelligence people have expressed similar views, and his words are echoed by the US Army Training Manual's section on interrogation, which suggests that:

    …the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear.

    The situation is further clouded by the fact that members of the George W. Bush administration made claims for the effectiveness of torture that have later been proven to be untrue. One such claim was that the water-boarding (simulated drowning) of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed produced vital information that allowed them to break up a plot to attack the Liberty Tower in Los Angeles in 2002. Slight problem - in 2002 Shaikh Mohammed was busy evading capture in Pakistan.

    But enough anecdotes, let's look at the science. Why wouldn't torture be effective? Actually there are many reasons. Let's assume that we have the right guy, and that he does in fact know the information that we need. All we need to do is beat it out of him, right?

    Well, no. Suppose I start beating you around the head, demanding that you tell me that Justin Bieber is in fact a supremely talented artist. Eventually, although it may take several days of torture to get there, you'll tell me what I want to hear, but that doesn't make it true."

    "The scientific community has never established that coercive interrogation methods are an effective means of obtaining reliable intelligence information."

    "In spite of decades of use, and ample opportunity to gather statistics, there just isn't any scientific evidence beyond a few dubious anecdotes to show that torture works."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/th.../2010/nov/04/2
    Last edited by Catawba; 07-28-12 at 03:59 AM.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    And we shouldn't use it for the simply fact that info gathered from torture is not reliable, people will say anything to make it stop. We shouldn't waste time, and possibly lives by using techniques that won't get us solid info.
    That's actually not true, and comes from a misquotation in the CIA interrogation manual titled KUBARK. What the manual actually states is that torture techniques can backfire if done incorrectly. It doesn't cause them to lie, because they know the consequences of lying. It causes them to shut down, and turn on the interrogator, which makes extracting any useful information impossible. Torture has to be used properly, in conjunction with good interrogation techniques in order to be effective.

    Torture is an effective means of extracting information, it's why man has used it for thousands of years. The real question is can it be done ethically. The answer is no, however, there's nothing ethical about war.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

  4. #24
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    In some cases it may be, but it's reliability is questionable.
    Sometimes. You don't just walk up to a prisoner tied to a chair and start wailing on him. It has to be done in conjunction with good interrogation techniques, by expert interrogators. If you don't know what you're doing, then you fail the mission, because that prisoner locks up, and you won't get anything out of him.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

  5. #25
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    That's actually not true, and comes from a misquotation in the CIA interrogation manual titled KUBARK. What the manual actually states is that torture techniques can backfire if done incorrectly. It doesn't cause them to lie, because they know the consequences of lying. It causes them to shut down, and turn on the interrogator, which makes extracting any useful information impossible. Torture has to be used properly, in conjunction with good interrogation techniques in order to be effective.

    Torture is an effective means of extracting information, it's why man has used it for thousands of years. The real question is can it be done ethically. The answer is no, however, there's nothing ethical about war.
    There isn't any real evidence that demonstrates that torture is an effective means of gathering information. Torture IS effective in getting a subject to do or say what you WANT them to say, but that may or may not be accurate information. There really is no way to truly test torture effectiveness as any "study" would be unethical.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #26
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    Sometimes. You don't just walk up to a prisoner tied to a chair and start wailing on him. It has to be done in conjunction with good interrogation techniques, by expert interrogators. If you don't know what you're doing, then you fail the mission, because that prisoner locks up, and you won't get anything out of him.
    A good interrogator doesn't need torture to be effective.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #27
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    There isn't any real evidence that demonstrates that torture is an effective means of gathering information. Torture IS effective in getting a subject to do or say what you WANT them to say, but that may or may not be accurate information. There really is no way to truly test torture effectiveness as any "study" would be unethical.
    A good interrogator doesn't need torture to be effective.
    It won't be found now because it's been turned into a politicized topic. Torture isn't limited to inflicting direct pain. It can consist of sensory deprivation, exposure, sleep deprivation, starvation, and so on. It's meant to wear down a persons ability to resist interrogation by tiring them out, since uniformed forces and combatants are trained to resist interrogation from day 1 in training. It's not the same as interrogating a civilian.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

  8. #28
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    It won't be found now because it's been turned into a politicized topic. Torture isn't limited to inflicting direct pain. It can consist of sensory deprivation, exposure, sleep deprivation, starvation, and so on. It's meant to wear down a persons ability to resist interrogation by tiring them out, since uniformed forces and combatants are trained to resist interrogation from day 1 in training. It's not the same as interrogating a civilian.
    That's true... all of those things can be considered torture and all are used to tire a person out and make them more susceptible to suggestion and compliance. It's similar to a form of "brainwashing" that cults may use... however, what this tends to do is make one more pliable, not necessarily more forthcoming.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #29
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    That's true... all of those things can be considered torture and all are used to tire a person out and make them more susceptible to suggestion and compliance. It's similar to a form of "brainwashing" that cults may use... however, what this tends to do is make one more pliable, not necessarily more forthcoming.
    Both the allies and axis powers used it with mixed results. It was done a lot during the Cold War too, with equally mixed results. It's not 100% effective, because each scenario is different, as all people have different weaknesses and tolerances. However, I don't think it should be done away with because it has its place.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

  10. #30
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It could be construed as such, by a strict definition.

    But "torture" can range from psychological tricks to things like pulling out fingernails and slow-roasting human beings over hot coals, or breaking them on the wheel as in the middle ages. As tortures go, water boarding is pretty mild. We do it to our own soldiers in SERE school.... they hate it but it does no lasting harm.

    Should we be using it as an interrogation technique for dangerous terrorists who want to kill as many Americans as they can?

    That's actually a tough question. If you think about 9/11 you'll understand the temptation.... if you think about how much worse bioterrorism or nuclear terrorism could be, you might find yourself considering things you'd never consider in everyday life.


    In short, necessity and desperation are the bitch twin sisters of moral compromise.... and until your ass has been in a really tight spot, you don't know how far those two bitches may push you.
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