View Poll Results: Do you think water boarding is torture?

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Thread: Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]

  1. #281
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Al-Qaeda went to war with us. And yes, the Geneva Conventions declare that A) all combatants must wear immediately identifiable uniforms and B) that failure to do so puts civilians at risk and that is the fault of the combatants who do not wear identifiable uniforms.

    That is why they can be summarily shot without trial.
    Year, so the did the mafia. I'm sorry CP, but there is a real difference. Pretending you can't see it doesn't make it any less real.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    No, the Mafia was about making money. They engaged in violence when they had to, and were a criminal element. Al Qaeda is a paramilitary organization dedicated to mass-murder.

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    No, the Mafia was about making money. They engaged in violence when they had to, and were a criminal element. Al Qaeda is a paramilitary organization dedicated to mass-murder.
    It doesn't matter at all what it is about. Our enemy does not believe it can beat us militarily. They do not believe we will cease to exist. They have goals they want. Serious criminals to be sure. But not nations. Not armies. They have no uniform.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It doesn't matter at all what it is about. Our enemy does not believe it can beat us militarily. They do not believe we will cease to exist.
    Actually they do.

    They have goals they want. Serious criminals to be sure. But not nations. Not armies. They have no uniform.
    And that is part of why they do not fall under Geneva protections.

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Actually they do.



    And that is part of why they do not fall under Geneva protections.
    No they don't. That's a fanasty we've pushed to excuse our actions. But whether they believe it or not is less important as to whether they ever could. It was never possible that they could.

    And I gave two choices. There are also civilian laws and rules we could follow. The point is, we don't throw out rule of law becasue or enemy, especially such a weak enemy, doesn't neatly fit a category.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No they don't.
    Yes, they do. They think they are the reason why the Soviet Union collapsed, and they believe we will be no different or more difficult. They truly honestly believe that Islam will conquer the world.

    That's a fanasty we've pushed to excuse our actions
    No. It is a fantasy to believe that Islamists share Western assumptions or beliefs such as the non-interferance of God in international affairs, the natural primacy of the nation-state, the preference for peace and material wealth over moral order, the importance of tolerance, the sovereignty of the individual/people, etc. etc. etc.

    But whether they believe it or not is less important as to whether they ever could. It was never possible that they could.
    that depends on what you are trying to do.

    And I gave two choices. There are also civilian laws and rules we could follow.
    Yeah, we tried that in the 90's and it was a disaster.

    The point is, we don't throw out rule of law because or enemy, especially such a weak enemy, doesn't neatly fit a category.
    Our enemy does fit into a category - that category is "terrorist".

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yes, they do. They think they are the reason why the Soviet Union collapsed, and they believe we will be no different or more difficult. They truly honestly believe that Islam will conquer the world.
    They also believe they have the right to set the price of oil. Because of that we have no choice but to carry a big stick when dealing with those nations.

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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Yes, they do. They think they are the reason why the Soviet Union collapsed, and they believe we will be no different or more difficult. They truly honestly believe that Islam will conquer the world.
    No, they don't. Sure, you can find someone who will say something stupid, but no, they don't. They hurt the SU< in Afghanistan, and with our help, got Afghanistan back. But they did not defeat the Soviets and did not beleive they could.

    No. It is a fantasy to believe that Islamists share Western assumptions or beliefs such as the non-interferance of God in international affairs, the natural primacy of the nation-state, the preference for peace and material wealth over moral order, the importance of tolerance, the sovereignty of the individual/people, etc. etc. etc.
    You're making a leap. Stay with what I actually said.


    that depends on what you are trying to do.
    I didn't give a list of possible goals. I said defeat us. They can't.

    Yeah, we tried that in the 90's and it was a disaster.
    No, we didn't. That's another mispresentation of what we were before 9/11. We largely did nothing before then, or very little. But we neither treated it like a law enforcement issue (which is what you're trying to switch the argument to) or treated all terrorist like civilians. The few we did bring to court and try was quite successful, as we tied them, convicted them, imprisoned them, and those still alive sit there to this day.

    Our enemy does fit into a category - that category is "terrorist".
    No ****. Of course, that's not the type of category we're talking. We're talking about the legal category to place them in terms of rule of law.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #289
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, they don't. Sure, you can find someone who will say something stupid, but no, they don't. They hurt the SU< in Afghanistan, and with our help, got Afghanistan back. But they did not defeat the Soviets and did not beleive they could.


    oh man. I wish I could take this stuff in to work and use you as an example of the mirror-imaging bias :p


    Suffice to say, yes. In the Muslim world at large and the Islamist worldview in particular, the collapse of the Soviet Union was seen as the result of Islamist victory in Afghanistan. The Soviet Union was seen as the worse of the two enemies, and the US is seen as "the weaker horse".

    And this is not exactly uncommon knowledge among those who actually study these people. It's sort of up there with "they speak Arabic".

    You're making a leap. Stay with what I actually said.
    your fantasy is built upon a number of implicit assumptions that flow from your 21st Century Western worldview.

    I didn't give a list of possible goals. I said defeat us. They can't.
    They can defeat us. That is the nature of asymmetrical 4Gen warfare. They will probably not cause us to cease to exist - we are more likely to do that to ourselves; though they would claim victory in such an instance, as they did with the Soviet Union.

    No, we didn't. That's another mispresentation of what we were before 9/11.
    That is not correct. That, after all, is why Clinton did not take OBL when he had the chance - because they were unsure if the evidence they had would be enough to ensure a conviction in a civilian court of law.

    We largely did nothing before then, or very little.
    Yes. And the reason for that is because we were hampered by a series of rules of engagement built around the domestic law enforcement model that are not a good fit for a global counter-terror fight.

    But we neither treated it like a law enforcement issue (which is what you're trying to switch the argument to) or treated all terrorist like civilians.
    we did indeed treat it explicitly like a law enforcement issue, as that was the explicit policy of the Clinton Administration and the Bush Administration prior to 9/11.

    The few we did bring to court and try was quite successful, as we tied them, convicted them, imprisoned them, and those still alive sit there to this day.
    Some of the ones we caught in this country. Other terrorists have been pardoned or released.

    No ****. Of course, that's not the type of category we're talking. We're talking about the legal category to place them in terms of rule of law.
    yes. non-applicable to the Geneva Conventions due to the fact that they are terrorist assholes who don't wear uniforms and who hide behind non-combatants.
    Last edited by cpwill; 08-05-12 at 07:22 PM.

  10. #290
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    didn't say that many words or have that many points CP for you to break it up that much. You do this most often when you want to misrepresent what is being said.

    And no, Clinton did not take OBL because he was unsure. It if he'd get the right target, and how the international repsonse would be. We did not go after Al Qaeda with a full fledged law enforcement effort. It is simply false to say we did.

    Nothing in law enforcement says Clinton couldn't have acted, any more than police can't act against a known criminal. You miss represent the history.

    No, we caught, tried and convicted actual terrorist. If someone was pardoned or released, how do you know they were a terroist? Do you know how just is determined? Hint: not by your personal opinion of what they were.


    http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/wp-c...eet-Courts.pdf

    And that doesn't include those before 9/11. But we can look at those as well:

    But the apocalyptic rhetoric rarely addresses this: Thirty-three international terrorists, many with ties to al-Qaeda, reside in a single federal prison in Florence, Colo., with little public notice.

    Detained in the supermax facility in Colorado are Ramzi Yousef, who headed the group that carried out the first bombing of the World Trade Center in February 1993; Zacarias Moussaoui, convicted of conspiring in the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001; Ahmed Ressam, of the Dec. 31, 1999, Los Angeles airport millennium attack plots; Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, conspirator in several plots, including one to assassinate President George W. Bush; and Wadih el-Hage, convicted of the 1998 bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Kenya.

    Supermax Prisons in U.S. Already Hold International Terrorists

    Now as to your continued bounching around the category issue. Again, I give your two choices. Neither is a do whatever you feel like choice. No dancing on your part changes that. So kindly address the point or move on.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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