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Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]

Do you think water boarding is torture?


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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Not that I agree completely with what NP said, I agree even less with you. Regardless of what we do, our captured servicemembers will be tortured and killed.

What DD fails to understand is our enemies don't play by the same rules we do.....I don't understand why he just does not get it when they show terrorists cutting off our soldiers heads.........
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Sorry, but to this I say "Grow up and face reality".

Kindly name for me a single Allied soldier that is being held by the Taliban or al-Qaeda that has been given a single visit by the Red Crescent. Give me a report of a single Allied who was held POW who has not either dissapeared into a black hole with occasional videos surfacing with visible evidence of violence, or turned up as a mutilated corpse.

This stupid claim that "this will cause our men and women to be tortured" is just absolute nonsense. Because it has been going on for decades.



Col. Higgins, member of the UN Peacekeeping mission, was captured, held prisoner for over a year and constantly tortured, then his execution video taped and released to the media. And this kind of behavior has been going on for decades.

Tell me, what could they be doing that is worse? Can you name a single Prisoner that our enemies have held that has been visited by International Authorities? Has a single one of them been released? Have their bodies ever been turned over in appropriate ways (through neutral intermediaries), instead of being thrown into garbage dumps decapitated?

Grow up and face reality. They could not be doing much worse then they already are. I know guys who served in the grunts downrange. Generally it is a repeat of WWII in the Pacific, where they get promises from their buddies that they will be shot by their own comrades rather then be taken alive by that scum.




You are right and he can't......
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Moderator's Warning:
Personal attacks, namecalling, over the top posting, telling some one to grow up, and so on, all needs to end now.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

So, they read about it too. Gotcha.

More than that. But, you have offer nothing that matches even reading about it.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Here's what you miss, as the military has made the same argument he does. In the future we may fight a different enemy, one that had used proper restraint in the past. Now they don't have to as we have said such rule of law doesn't matter.

Actually, the military makes the exact opposite case. They insist that everybody who goes downrange carefully follows each and every aspect of the Geneva and Hague conventions, and that we do not do a single thing wrong, or face Court Martial.

And one thing I tell everybody not to do is to read into what I am saying. I say things exactly as I see them, no hiding things between the lines. In no way am I saying that we should not follow all the Laws of Land Warfare. It is just that if a few of them are bent a bit, you will find no tears coming from me. And trust me when I say that soldiers fighting are going to generally follow the same behavior, reguardless of who their enemy is. However, during the conflict they will start to change their behavior to match what they are facing.

For an example, look at WWII. In the Pacific, the Japanese were known for almost never taking prisoners. They might take them when a unit surrendered, but did not take them as individuals. In the instances where they did they were pretty universally tortured for whatever could be extracted, then executed. And during and after battles, it was not unusual for the Marines to find mutilated bodies of their comrades inside of Japanese positions. So is it any wonder that they often formed suicide pacts, and would save one bullet for themselves in case they might end up captured?

Then compare this to those ifghting in Germany and Italy. Yes, there were some atrocities, but these were exceptions, not the rule. All side in that Theatre were generally very careful to follow all of the rules regarding POWs. And such "suicide pacts" were almost unheard of.

Then less then a decade later many of these sames Soldiers and Marines that fought in the Pacific and Europe were fighting in Korea. Here the enemy generally followed the rules, and such attrocities did not happen.

I am not talking about propaganda here, but historical facts. Yet the Taliban and the groups that make it up are pretty much acting the same way that they did against the Soviets before, and the British, and every other invader. If you look around there are plenty of graphic videos of Soviet soldiers being executed and beheaded in Afghanistan.

And if you question this, I welcome anybody to read up on John Masters, a British Army Officer who wrote extensively of the region, including the 3 Anglo-Afghan Wars. There is a great biography of him, written by author John Clay.

War for the Pathans [Pashtuns] was an honourable, exciting and manly exercise, in which each succeeding generation needed to prove itself, but war was also ruthless; no mercy was shown and none was expected. Neither side aimed to take prisoners. The Pathans customarily mutilated and then beheaded any wounded or dead who fell into their hands. Women often carried out these operations. A well-known torture was called the Thousand Cuts, whereby flesh woulds were newly made and grass and thorns pushed into them so that they would hurt horribly. A prisoner might be pegged out on the ground and his jaw forcibly opened with a stick so that he could not swallow, then women would urinate in his mouth until he drowned. Frank Baines, who served on the North-West Frontier and later with Masters in Burma, put it more crudely:* ‘If you got captured, you were not only killed in a lively and imaginative manner, you were carved up and quartered and had your **** cut off and stuffed in your mouth for good measure.’

Amazon.com: John Masters: A Regimented Life (9780718129453): John Clay: Books

So no, the Taliban are simply following their culture on the treatment of prisoners, and nothing we or anybody else do will ever change that. And no amount of nonsense propaganda will change that. Now if they treated prisoners well then only changed after things were done to them, I might think there is something there. But as I said, we have held hundreds of prisoners, and released hundreds of them. We give access to International Authorities, including the Red Crescent to those we hold. Do they do the same?

So if some are made to wear panties on their head, I will not shed any tears, nor call it a "war crime". And when people can't tell the difference between these actions and real war crimes, I have to wonder at their humanity.

I also apologize for the graphicness of the quote above, I did not write it, that is directly out of the book.
 
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Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Actually, the military makes the exact opposite case. They insist that everybody who goes downrange carefully follows each and every aspect of the Geneva and Hague conventions, and that we do not do a single thing wrong, or face Court Martial.

And one thing I tell everybody not to do is to read into what I am saying. I say things exactly as I see them, no hiding things between the lines. In no way am I saying that we should not follow all the Laws of Land Warfare. It is just that if a few of them are bent a bit, you will find no tears coming from me. And trust me when I say that soldiers fighting are going to generally follow the same behavior, reguardless of who their enemy is. However, during the conflict they will start to change their behavior to match what they are facing.

For an example, look at WWII. In the Pacific, the Japanese were known for almost never taking prisoners. They might take them when a unit surrendered, but did not take them as individuals. In the instances where they did they were pretty universally tortured for whatever could be extracted, then executed. And during and after battles, it was not unusual for the Marines to find mutilated bodies of their comrades inside of Japanese positions. So is it any wonder that they often formed suicide pacts, and would save one bullet for themselves in case they might end up captured?

Then compare this to those ifghting in Germany and Italy. Yes, there were some atrocities, but these were exceptions, not the rule. All side in that Theatre were generally very careful to follow all of the rules regarding POWs. And such "suicide pacts" were almost unheard of.

Then less then a decade later many of these sames Soldiers and Marines that fought in the Pacific and Europe were fighting in Korea. Here the enemy generally followed the rules, and such attrocities did not happen.

I am not talking about propaganda here, but historical facts. Yet the Taliban and the groups that make it up are pretty much acting the same way that they did against the Soviets before, and the British, and every other invader. If you look around there are plenty of graphic videos of Soviet soldiers being executed and beheaded in Afghanistan.

And if you question this, I welcome anybody to read up on John Masters, a British Army Officer who wrote extensively of the region, including the 3 Anglo-Afghan Wars. There is a great biography of him, written by author John Clay.



Amazon.com: John Masters: A Regimented Life (9780718129453): John Clay: Books

So no, the Taliban are simply following their culture on the treatment of prisoners, and nothing we or anybody else do will ever change that. And no amount of nonsense propaganda will change that. Now if they treated prisoners well then only changed after things were done to them, I might think there is something there. But as I said, we have held hundreds of prisoners, and released hundreds of them. We give access to International Authorities, including the Red Crescent to those we hold. Do they do the same?

So if some are made to wear panties on their head, I will not shed any tears, nor call it a "war crime". And when people can't tell the difference between these actions and real war crimes, I have to wonder at their humanity.

I also apologize for the graphicness of the quote above, I did not write it, that is directly out of the book.

You may have misunderstood what I said the military argues. I said they argue to follow the rules.

And while it's depraved and sad that anyone would put panties on someone's head, that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about waterboarding, which has always been called torture and illegal. And other more harsh treatment which did take a at least a couple of lives. So, trying to pretend that there is only something that is mildly degrading is disingenueous.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

You may have misunderstood what I said the military argues. I said they argue to follow the rules.

And while it's depraved and sad that anyone would put panties on someone's head, that isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about waterboarding, which has always been called torture and illegal. And other more harsh treatment which did take a at least a couple of lives. So, trying to pretend that there is only something that is mildly degrading is disingenueous.

And if somebody might have key intelligence upon which acting on it in a timely manner might save lives, I say stick them in the water.

As I said, I do not care much if the rules are bent a bit on occasion, when the opposition we are fighting has no compulsion to follow the rules whatsoever. If we were fighting the Iranian Army (which believe it or not generally were very careful to follow the rules), then I would agree that such behavior is not appropriate. But against the Taliban and their ilk, I have very little sympathy, consideration, or even care. And they only themselves to blame in this.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

And if somebody might have key intelligence upon which acting on it in a timely manner might save lives, I say stick them in the water.

As I said, I do not care much if the rules are bent a bit on occasion, when the opposition we are fighting has no compulsion to follow the rules whatsoever. If we were fighting the Iranian Army (which believe it or not generally were very careful to follow the rules), then I would agree that such behavior is not appropriate. But against the Taliban and their ilk, I have very little sympathy, consideration, or even care. And they only themselves to blame in this.

May, might, if, words that all too often mean, don't know and infringe on the rights of the innocent. Odds of having such a person are nearly nonexistent. And what we do here will effect what happens when and if we do battle with any nation's army. It's not that we can follow the rules with one and not the other. Actions have consequences.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

May, might, if, words that all too often mean, don't know and infringe on the rights of the innocent. Odds of having such a person are nearly nonexistent. And what we do here will effect what happens when and if we do battle with any nation's army. It's not that we can follow the rules with one and not the other. Actions have consequences.

Can you prove that? No, you can't. Sorry, but I debate based upon facts and past events, not conjecture. And that is all you have.

Imagine we got into a war with the Soviets next year. Do you believe they will generally follow the rules? I do, because they are professionals and know how the game is played. Will they worry about us following the rules? Not really, because they know that we also are professionals and follow the rules.

However, in this case we are not fighting a professional force. Not only that, but a force that actually accepts such behaviors as what they do as "routine". So do you really think they believe waterboarding to be "torture"? If anything else, it is probably more effective because they can't understand why on earth we would even bother to keep them prisoner in the first place, since they would not do so if the tables are turned.

I have provided sources, can you do the same for your claims?
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Not that I agree completely with what NP said, I agree even less with you. Regardless of what we do, our captured servicemembers will be tortured and killed.

I'm not just talking about terrorists....I'm talking about any nation that we might be at war with. When you stoop to the level of your enemy and engage in torture, it opens our men and women of the military up to the danger of being subjected to it....afterall, if we are a nation that tortures in violation of the generva convention, it is kind of hard for us to take the high ground. I think we owe our men and women of the military at LEAST that.

As I was always taught growing up....its always better to take the high road. When you lower your values and morals in order to obtain a single victory....it cheapens us.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

What DD fails to understand is our enemies don't play by the same rules we do.....I don't understand why he just does not get it when they show terrorists cutting off our soldiers heads.........

Oh ....I get it NP.....I just don't see how that justifies us engaging in morally rehensible actions just because others do. Maybe you like bringing this countries morals and values down. I, however, believe that this nation has become the great nation that it is by being a moral beacon to the world. To me...that is something we should never ever sacrifice.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Can you prove that? No, you can't. Sorry, but I debate based upon facts and past events, not conjecture. And that is all you have.

Imagine we got into a war with the Soviets next year. Do you believe they will generally follow the rules? I do, because they are professionals and know how the game is played. Will they worry about us following the rules? Not really, because they know that we also are professionals and follow the rules.

However, in this case we are not fighting a professional force. Not only that, but a force that actually accepts such behaviors as what they do as "routine". So do you really think they believe waterboarding to be "torture"? If anything else, it is probably more effective because they can't understand why on earth we would even bother to keep them prisoner in the first place, since they would not do so if the tables are turned.

I have provided sources, can you do the same for your claims?


What would call proof?

Retired Adm. Dennis C. Blair, President Obama's nominee to lead the U.S. intelligence community, told Congress yesterday that torture "is not moral, legal or effective" and that "there will not be any waterboarding on my watch."

Intelligence Pick Calls Torture Immoral, Ineffective - washingtonpost.com

Or this:

Or listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."

Worse, you'll have the other side effects of torture. It "endangers our soldiers on the battlefield by encouraging reciprocity." It does "damage to our country's image" and undermines our credibility in Iraq. That, in the long run, outweighs any theoretical benefit. Herrington's confidential Pentagon report, which he won't discuss but which was leaked to The Post a month ago, goes farther. In that document, he warned that members of an elite military and CIA task force were abusing detainees in Iraq, that their activities could be "making gratuitous enemies" and that prisoner abuse "is counterproductive to the Coalition's efforts to win the cooperation of the Iraqi citizenry." Far from rescuing Americans, in other words, the use of "special methods" might help explain why the war is going so badly.

The Torture Myth (washingtonpost.com)

I don't say these things without having some idea what the prevaling thought on the matter is before I say them.

And I have many sources throughout this thread.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

But remember--they're not people, they're "enemy combatants." Therefore, it's okay to torture them.

/snark
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

More than that. But, you have offer nothing that matches even reading about it.

Other than going through it, personally knowing the people that teach it, and personally knowing people that have been POWs? Guess ya got me :roll:
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Other than going through it, personally knowing the people that teach it, and personally knowing people that have been POWs? Guess ya got me :roll:

Yeah, I do. If you're correct, than you should be able to present something verifable. If you can't, the odds are great that you merely think you know.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Yeah, I do. If you're correct, than you should be able to present something verifable. If you can't, the odds are great that you merely think you know.

Well, I'm not going to post a transcript of the last 23 years of my life so, you go on thinking you know better.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Well, I'm not going to post a transcript of the last 23 years of my life so, you go on thinking you know better.

they always know better. ;)
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Well, I'm not going to post a transcript of the last 23 years of my life so, you go on thinking you know better.

Funny how those who can prove no evidence alway think they know more than those who do. At the end of the day, I'm the one who produced evidence.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

Funny how those who can prove no evidence alway think they know more than those who do. At the end of the day, I'm the one who produced evidence.

I don't really care if I can prove it. I've lived it. And I disagree that it is "torture" as a result of my personal exp. I also disagree that it should be continued to be used, you should be happy with that.

All you've produced is a regurgitation of someone else's opinion. Subjective X2.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I don't really care if I can prove it. I've lived it. And I disagree that it is "torture" as a result of my personal exp. I also disagree that it should be continued to be used, you should be happy with that.

All you've produced is a regurgitation of someone else's opinion. Subjective X2.

And you can get away with that sitting in your living room. But you spoke up here. Outside of your own mind, others need actual evidence. And no, my source is far less subjective than you, with far more to base their opinion on. You just don't want to see it.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

And you can get away with that sitting in your living room. But you spoke up here. Outside of your own mind, others need actual evidence. And no, my source is far less subjective than you, with far more to base their opinion on. You just don't want to see it.

I can get away with "sitting in my living room" because I served my country for 23 years in uniform, and continue to do so out of uniform. Phux your source.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I can get away with "sitting in my living room" because I served my country for 23 years in uniform, and continue to do so out of uniform. Phux your source.

Doesn't change anything. And I said you could get away with it in your living room. Evidence is almost always required. Because I said so is rarely if ever enough.
 
Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

I think you should give it a try on yourself and tell us if it feel's like torture. What better way to know than experience?
It's torture because the Left said so.
 
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