View Poll Results: Do you think water boarding is torture?

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  • Yes

    114 77.55%
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Thread: Do you think water boarding is torture?[W:453]

  1. #101
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It is possible if he was in the military he got a taste of it. The common mistake is to think that taste was equal to having it actually done, it a less friendly situation.
    Yes, I know. I was kidding him.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    See? You know it without acknowledging it. Breasts implies a body part. Likewise, does penis. However, when we start labeling them as "jugs and knockers" or cocks we start traveling into the pornographic realm where people begin to scowl. Does not Obama Care change the idea of Universal Health Care to many Americans? Does not political correctness change the atmosphere when it comes to describing people? All one had to do was change discipline and spanking to "abuse" and the entire idea was altered. You ever write up an award for an individual and pull out the thesaurus to give the award a greater meaning? And how different are the words "traitor" and "patriot?" Do I not have a duty to assassinate a one day leader who may seek to enslave Americans.....or is this treachery?

    Don't pretend that descriptive words don't change the idea or the event. Anyone with a High School Diploma would agree.



    Really? Some guy behind a desk doesn't decide what speeding is? Why is it dangerous to drive at 75 in some states and totally safe in others? Laws are simply made. Rules are simply made. It is the other way around. Prohibition? Thanks for the organized crime. People's idea of things often screw up what is actually good for people. Today we complain about legalized marijuana. At one time, the evils of drugs were clear to most. Laws are bull **** and the powers that be theme words around them to convince the ignorant and the idiots that they should represent them.
    So - laws are bull****. . . and so it doesn't matter what it's called . . . but it does matter what we call it.

    What's your point - I think you forgot it. Make up your mind which way you're going. We either define what is torture or we don't - we either label something or we don't - we either legally define what is or what isn't or we don't.

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  3. #103
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    If it is torture, it's more psychological than physical, and compared to, say, hooking someone up to a car battery with jumper cables, I'll vote no. Everything is relative and there is no question that these techniques yielded some valuable information.
    "The argument on torture pits two schools of thought against each other. There are the Trinquierists who believe in the efficacy of torture. They advance their argument most strenuously through the "ticking time bomb hypothesis." You torture your opponent to get out of him the tactical information that allows you to diffuse a time bomb before it blows up in your face. Torture is a dark art that you use because it works.

    The other side argues that this position is wrong. The strong when tortured confess to nothing, and the weak confess to everything. Torture produces an avalanche of disinformation. The Iraq war proves this handily. The war ranks among the most significant intelligence failures in American history. Everything the United States thought it knew about Iraq before the invasion was wrong. The supposed intelligence from "Curveball" in Germany and al-Libi in Egypt was nothing but red herrings and Al Qaeda disinformation. Torture is illegal. It is morally corrosive and strategically unwise. In the context of a seminar on counterinsurgency, one would also note that torture doesn't work".


    Commentary: Counterinsurgency and torture | Article | The United States Army

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  4. #104
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    By the definitions of torture some are putting forward, prisoners are tortured in Japanese jails daily. They are forced to kneel in the middle of their cells for hours on end, and psychological pressure combined with physical discomforts are used to push them to sign confessions.
    Let's don't even mention Mexican prisons, and what goes on in jail in some middle eastern nations.

    Instead lets focus on how evil the USA is for having been desperate enough to resort to mild, non-harmful torture to find out if terrorists were planning to murder thousands or tens of thousands more Americans in the first few years after 9/11. (/irony)
    mild torture is a bit of an oxymoron. Certainly it's all relative and there are certainly much more severe tortures than waterboarding. But mild? Not according to anyone I've heard who's been waterboarded. Your body's reaction to "drowning" is pretty ****ing intense and extremely, for lack of a better word, uncomfortable. From what i understand most people can tolerate 10-15 seconds of the experience. I don't think anybody that downplays the severity of waterboarding or compares it to dunking your head in water has any idea what they're talking about.

    As CC pointed out hte question shouldn't be how bad is waterboarding - the question should be when and what sort of circumstances allow torture to be acceptable?

  5. #105
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    It is the sane approach to world affairs as opposed to the insane approach. I'll go with the former, but you do as you wish. Its one of the reasons we elected Obama, and since Romney says he will return to the practice of torture, its one of the reasons we will reelect the president.

    The freakin' cowboy approach is what got us into an almost decade long war with a country that was of no threat to us.
    The "cowboy approach" is another copout to dimsiss global demands. When did the Soviets invade U.S. soil? When did the Germans? Once again, you mire yourself in your impractical ideas of the world.

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  6. #106
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    The "cowboy approach" is another copout to dimsiss global demands. When did the Soviets invade U.S. soil? When did the Germans? Once again, you mire yourself in your impractical ideas of the world.
    We did not act well with the Soviets. If we believe in our system, we may well have won without the theatrics. And german declared war on us. Just saying.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  7. #107
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    The "cowboy approach" is another copout to dimsiss global demands. When did the Soviets invade U.S. soil? When did the Germans? Once again, you mire yourself in your impractical ideas of the world.
    No one has invaded us through most of our history, even when we spent a fraction of what we spend now. The Iraq war for US hegemony in Iraq cost us almost 5,000 troops and trillions of dollars. There is no reason to be spending ourselves into bankruptcy just to further the commercial interest of the 1%. So **** a bunch of cowboy diplomacy, and the horse it rode in on!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #108
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    We condemn a lot of places for using torture and rightly so. But when we resort to doing the same thing, to any degree, we do lose ground.
    And how to de measure this degree of lost ground? Because it seems to me that no matter what we do our allies and not so allied come begging no matter what. It's only your idea of things that get dented. In the end, we march on and they follow just fine despite their whining of imperfections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    A murder who kills one is in some measurment better than a murder who kills 12. But, neither holds the moral high ground. The second we began to debate whether waterboarding was torture, we slide off that ground.
    Governemnts do as they need to do in order to protect citizens they are charged with. "Moral high ground" is a mattwer of classroom ethics that have little to do with global affairs. Influence comes from power. We didn't come to power through our "moral high ground." We came to power because of what we do for ourselves without conquering and oppressing the world.

    But let's break down this "moral high ground." Nuclear bombs on civilian cities? Supporting dictators during the Cold War? How do you reconcile this "moral high ground" with our existing and competing in this immoral world? Liberals will cut out their own eyes before they acknowledge that this country has gotten away from Christian base and that we have encouraged more and more violence in our movies and video games since the 1980s. The entire world had made note of how Hollywood changed in the 1980s. We have gone from suit wearing business men who tipped their hats at passing women to thugs who carry guns in schools and wear profanity on their t-shirts. But three waterboarding cases dented our moral high ground?

    If only France shunned America instead of begging for support over Libya. Then you would have an argument of the damage we sustained to our moral high ground over the word "waterboard."

    "Morality" is a convenience and it is defined in todays world wuite immoraly. An international law that demands a respect for soveriegnty while the world watches a celebration of ethnic cleansing or genocide is how we define good morality these days. The moral high ground goes to those who write history.

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  9. #109
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Yes it's torture. No, the United States should never have gotten involved in using it.

    Historically, torture is a very unreliable way to gain information. The person being tortured will say pretty much anything to end the torture, whether is accurate true information or what the tortured person perceives the torturer wants to hear.

    Have we gotten useful information from waterboarding, sure. But how much useless bs did we also get and how much information did we not get because of it?

    Not every one will be a Lance P. Sijan, but some will be.

    The use of properly devolped chemical interrogation drugs and techniques would prove much more effective and would never bring in the question of morality.

  10. #110
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    Re: Do you think water boarding is torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    So - laws are bull****. . . and so it doesn't matter what it's called . . . but it does matter what we call it.

    What's your point - I think you forgot it. Make up your mind which way you're going. We either define what is torture or we don't - we either label something or we don't - we either legally define what is or what isn't or we don't.

    Indiana Jones Moment - searching for the holy grail . . . 'he chose - poorly'
    My point is that we define things and events conveniently. When we don't like a law we simply put lawyers to work to change the law to fit what we want to do in the moment. The same is true for morality. Waterboarding is a word that describes an event. Adding "torture" to it delivers the perception of ripping off fingernails and therefore absolutely must be forbidden. A rifle is a rifle until one adds "sniper" or "assault" to it and then all of a sudden the weak minded absolutely must do something to protect us all.

    Laws.....are.....bull....****. Laws are what kept your kind from voting. Laws are what kept blacks as slaves. Laws are what makes genocide inside a soveriegn nation legal enough to make the rest look away. Laws allow us to be immoral while preaching that we are moral for obeying laws.

    Once again, in case you got confused along the way, laws and words merely add the credibility or legitimacy we want in the moment. This is why you can get a speeding ticket on Thursday for going 65, but on Friday get a ticket for going too slow on the same road because the speed limit changed over night. Laws are written, too often, to demand a certain perspective from the citizens....or sheep. Hell, even judges rely on the decisions made by others, when it comes to passing judgement. They don't rely on their own morality. They rely on presedence and the morality of the past. This is why our judicial system is lazy and horrible inept and corrupt. Ever wonder why laws are written so that you have to hre a lawyer to explain them? It's a slef licking ice cream cone that relies on people, who obey whatever perception a single word offers, to raise a fist in compliance.

    "Waterboarding"......has a certain sting when we call it "Waterboarding Torture." BY the way, is that video you recently watched a "Romance" or "pornographic depravity?"
    Last edited by MSgt; 07-28-12 at 04:58 PM.

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