Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb
What's your point - I think you forgot it. Make up your mind which way you're going. We either define what is torture or we don't - we either label something or we don't - we either legally define what is or what isn't or we don't.
Indiana Jones Moment - searching for the holy grail . . . 'he chose - poorly'
A screaming comes across the sky.
It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow
The other side argues that this position is wrong. The strong when tortured confess to nothing, and the weak confess to everything. Torture produces an avalanche of disinformation. The Iraq war proves this handily. The war ranks among the most significant intelligence failures in American history. Everything the United States thought it knew about Iraq before the invasion was wrong. The supposed intelligence from "Curveball" in Germany and al-Libi in Egypt was nothing but red herrings and Al Qaeda disinformation. Torture is illegal. It is morally corrosive and strategically unwise. In the context of a seminar on counterinsurgency, one would also note that torture doesn't work".
Commentary: Counterinsurgency and torture | Article | The United States Army
Europe is in the midst of disaster, only, they do not realize.
As CC pointed out hte question shouldn't be how bad is waterboarding - the question should be when and what sort of circumstances allow torture to be acceptable?
AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.
But let's break down this "moral high ground." Nuclear bombs on civilian cities? Supporting dictators during the Cold War? How do you reconcile this "moral high ground" with our existing and competing in this immoral world? Liberals will cut out their own eyes before they acknowledge that this country has gotten away from Christian base and that we have encouraged more and more violence in our movies and video games since the 1980s. The entire world had made note of how Hollywood changed in the 1980s. We have gone from suit wearing business men who tipped their hats at passing women to thugs who carry guns in schools and wear profanity on their t-shirts. But three waterboarding cases dented our moral high ground?
If only France shunned America instead of begging for support over Libya. Then you would have an argument of the damage we sustained to our moral high ground over the word "waterboard."
"Morality" is a convenience and it is defined in todays world wuite immoraly. An international law that demands a respect for soveriegnty while the world watches a celebration of ethnic cleansing or genocide is how we define good morality these days. The moral high ground goes to those who write history.
Yes it's torture. No, the United States should never have gotten involved in using it.
Historically, torture is a very unreliable way to gain information. The person being tortured will say pretty much anything to end the torture, whether is accurate true information or what the tortured person perceives the torturer wants to hear.
Have we gotten useful information from waterboarding, sure. But how much useless bs did we also get and how much information did we not get because of it?
Not every one will be a Lance P. Sijan, but some will be.
The use of properly devolped chemical interrogation drugs and techniques would prove much more effective and would never bring in the question of morality.
Laws.....are.....bull....****. Laws are what kept your kind from voting. Laws are what kept blacks as slaves. Laws are what makes genocide inside a soveriegn nation legal enough to make the rest look away. Laws allow us to be immoral while preaching that we are moral for obeying laws.
Once again, in case you got confused along the way, laws and words merely add the credibility or legitimacy we want in the moment. This is why you can get a speeding ticket on Thursday for going 65, but on Friday get a ticket for going too slow on the same road because the speed limit changed over night. Laws are written, too often, to demand a certain perspective from the citizens....or sheep. Hell, even judges rely on the decisions made by others, when it comes to passing judgement. They don't rely on their own morality. They rely on presedence and the morality of the past. This is why our judicial system is lazy and horrible inept and corrupt. Ever wonder why laws are written so that you have to hre a lawyer to explain them? It's a slef licking ice cream cone that relies on people, who obey whatever perception a single word offers, to raise a fist in compliance.
"Waterboarding"......has a certain sting when we call it "Waterboarding Torture." BY the way, is that video you recently watched a "Romance" or "pornographic depravity?"
Last edited by MSgt; 07-28-12 at 02:58 PM.