Why would you own an assault rifle?

LaMidRighter said:

You aren't getting the point. If you have 200 rounds and don't hit anything, or hit at a 1:40 ratio your odds of causing death and destruction are not good, that is a major drawback of assault rifles, their rate of fire makes them inaccurate. If you have ONE grendade and throw it into a crowd of twenty you'll probably kill 18 to 20. You may not kill anyone with an assault rifle, though you may wound a couple.

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I think that's more than a little unfair to think that "if you have 200 rounds and don't hit anything..." I don't think that if you're deliberately looking to kill people, you're going to kill one person every 40 slugs. I think the numbers would be a bit higher. Of course I don't have experience killing people with assault rifles, so obviously this is strictly anecdotal. I still think one could charge a crowd, mow them down, and then continue mowing down the fallen victims. It wouldn't be difficult if an ammo cartridge contains 50-100 slugs per pop.

Goshin said:

I don't own an assault rifle in order to mow down packs of victims. I own one for defending my home and property and self and family, and for target shooting... and as a way-way-way-far-back-improbability, as a hedge against civil-disorder-disater situations.

I don't own a grenade launcher and don't want one. For one thing it is fairly useless in self-defense as it is an AREA EFFECT WEAPON.... it lacks precision targeting ability. Furthermore I don't much like explosives, they're as dangerous to the possessor as to anyone else if not carefully handled.

It is a ludicrous comparison.

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I don't know much about guns/weapons. I figured a grenade launcer typically has, what, two rockets. You can kill people within the 15-ft blast radius. You get two shots. However, with an assault rifle with 100 slugs you can mow down a group, run to the next destination, mow more down, etc. Iirc that one Norway terrorist did the same thing.

I figure if you have a weapon that can kill over 50 people with two ammo cartridges, then why not an RPG, too? What gives an edge in favor of the assault rifle is that, as you said, there's no possibility of being trapped in a blast radius. You can kill a lot of people in compact places, especially if they're within 15 feet of you. Not so with a RPG. Edge on assault rifle.

notquiteright said:

A lot of what ifing in this.

I don't know too many folks can make an offhand T-Box shot with only partial exposure on moving heads, the hostage taker and the hostage. Your asking a lot for some badguy to not shoot you, or cut the kid while your steady up and squeeze. You must have ice water for blood.

Most of the time you will be clearing your house, working toward the children's bedrooms, don't know about you but I like my kid's room a bit away from the parental bedroom due to my wife not being much of a pillow biter... :shock:

The problem with a shotgun is the same as bolt gun or carbine in house clearing. The barrel leads. The badguy doesn't need to grab it, simply be aware you are exactly right there. Pistols work well in room to room movement where you don't want to wave a barrel in the room before entering. (tactical movement goes MUCH farther than what weapon you use, though a shotgun when your children are in the house does seem like a poor selection.) Pieing the room before entering goes along way toward success in clearing a room.

For home defense nothing more than a revolver is needed, that some of we like high cap semi-autos, 8 round shotguns, or ARs to do the job has little to do with the job, a lot more to do with the lose nut on the trigger...

But hey 99.99999% of the home defenders will never actually have to clear rooms, T-Box a bad guy holding their daughter at knife point, or expend more than 3 rounds defending the home. Most likely some drunken, drugged up guy thinking you are easy pickings so your have to wait until you are over 70 or a single mom even then at best one round expended or just seeing the pistol will have the turd roller fleeing in terror.... eace

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1. I'm not an idiot nor inexperienced... nor a "loose nut".
2. I've been trained in houseclearing, both with handguns and with carbines or shotguns, alone or with a team. I have my preferred methods of doing it; maybe I'll go into the details sometime.
3. I'm fully aware that MOST self-defense scenarios are over by the time three shots have been fired.... but also aware that this is not ALL.
4. I'm fully aware that hostage-rescue shots are a rarity even for SWAT teams. That doesn't mean I don't want the capacity to make one if the improbable actually happens... as it has a habit of doing sometimes. I live in a rural area of farmers and feed stores, and we had a frigging SERIAL KILLER do in five people in my area, including two people I knew personally, so don't lecture me on what is "likely" to happen.
5. I don't care for revolvers for home defense due to limited capacity and slow reloads. Yes I know six would usually be enough, but I'm not one to be satisfied with "usually enough".
6. You don't get to decide what I need or don't need, or what is adequate for my purposes and what is excessive, any more than I get to limit your freedom of speech as long as you don't break the law doing it.

Wake said:

I think that's more than a little unfair to think that "if you have 200 rounds and don't hit anything..." I don't think that if you're deliberately looking to kill people, you're going to kill one person every 40 slugs. I think the numbers would be a bit higher. Of course I don't have experience killing people with assault rifles, so obviously this is strictly anecdotal. I still think one could charge a crowd, mow them down, and then continue mowing down the fallen victims. It wouldn't be difficult if an ammo cartridge contains 50-100 slugs per pop.

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Wake, would you like to get educated and informed on the actual facts about "assault" rifles in private hands, or would you just prefer to continue making statements about the topic that simply have no connection to reality?

If the former, I can fill you in. If the latter, yer on your own.

Goshin said:

Wake, would you like to get educated and informed on the actual facts about "assault" rifles in private hands, or would you just prefer to continue making statements about the topic that simply have no connection to reality?

If the former, I can fill you in. If the latter, yer on your own.

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If you do so with the same respect I show you, then I'd appreciate it. I'd factor that in, and also research any other data that may place weight against it. Any data that supports either case is always helpful.

Wake said:

How much ammo do assault rifles typically contain? I'm also going to count a 2nd ammo cartridge. Each slug from an assault rifle is another chance to kill.

I think a gym full of kids/adults could be mowed down with a powerful assault rifle, as lethal if not moreso than a grenade launcher. Also, with the grenade launcher there's more of a risk of possibly being caught in the blast radius. With an assault rifle you cannot get caught in a blast radius. If an assault rifle can carry over 100 bullets, it's more lethal than an RPG, imo.

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Wake said:

I think that's more than a little unfair to think that "if you have 200 rounds and don't hit anything..." I don't think that if you're deliberately looking to kill people, you're going to kill one person every 40 slugs. I think the numbers would be a bit higher. Of course I don't have experience killing people with assault rifles, so obviously this is strictly anecdotal. I still think one could charge a crowd, mow them down, and then continue mowing down the fallen victims. It wouldn't be difficult if an ammo cartridge contains 50-100 slugs per pop.

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Wake said:

I don't know much about guns/weapons. I figured a grenade launcer typically has, what, two rockets. You can kill people within the 15-ft blast radius. You get two shots. However, with an assault rifle with 100 slugs you can mow down a group, run to the next destination, mow more down, etc. Iirc that one Norway terrorist did the same thing.

I figure if you have a weapon that can kill over 50 people with two ammo cartridges, then why not an RPG, too? What gives an edge in favor of the assault rifle is that, as you said, there's no possibility of being trapped in a blast radius. You can kill a lot of people in compact places, especially if they're within 15 feet of you. Not so with a RPG. Edge on assault rifle.

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Okay, hold up a minute and let me throw out a few facts for you, so that you have some tiny measure of accurate info before jumping headfirst into any more barrels of used chewing gum.

1. An "assault rifle" is NOT more deadly than a grenade launcher or RPG, and they are totally different classes of weapons because one is an explosive "area effect" weapon.
2. Almost all "assault rifles" in private hands in America are in fact SEMI-AUTO (one shot per trigger pull) and NOT full auto. Full auto is much harder to obtain and requires special licenses and permits and conditions.
3. Most "assault" rifles have magazines holding 20 or 30 rounds. These 100 round magazines are typically bulky drums; they are hard to load, cranky and prone to failure, and pros generally do not use them for those reasons.
4. An "Assault" rifle fires an intermediate cartridge... that means a cartridge of middle-level power for rifles. A typical deer rifle is MORE POWERFUL PER SHOT than most assault rifles.
5. Assault rifles are therefore LESS deadly on a per-shot basis than a typical deer rifle.
6. Simply charging into a crowd and thinking you're going to "mow them down" like grain because you have a semi-auto "assault" rifle is a major tactical misjudgement. Having an assault rifle does not make you bulletproof, nor automatically guarantee you will beat someone with a revolver or even someone with a pocket knife, quick reflexes and a bit of luck.
7. Grenade launchers do not typically shoot rockets. RPGs shoot rocket-propelled grenades yes; most grenade launchers shoot grenades with a charge like a shotgun... but again, this is a TOTALLY different class of weapon.

I got to go light the grill, more on this in a few minutes....

Goshin said:

1. An "assault rifle" is NOT more deadly than a grenade launcher or RPG, and they are totally different classes of weapons because one is an explosive "area effect" weapon.
2. Almost all "assault rifles" in private hands in America are in fact SEMI-AUTO (one shot per trigger pull) and NOT full auto. Full auto is much harder to obtain and requires special licenses and permits and conditions.
3. Most "assault" rifles have magazines holding 20 or 30 rounds. These 100 round magazines are typically bulky drums; they are hard to load, cranky and prone to failure, and pros generally do not use them for those reasons.
4. An "Assault" rifle fires an intermediate cartridge... that means a cartridge of middle-level power for rifles. A typical deer rifle is MORE POWERFUL PER SHOT than most assault rifles.
5. Assault rifles are therefore LESS deadly on a per-shot basis than a typical deer rifle.
6. Simply charging into a crowd and thinking you're going to "mow them down" like grain because you have a semi-auto "assault" rifle is a major tactical misjudgement. Having an assault rifle does not make you bulletproof, nor automatically guarantee you will beat someone with a revolver or even someone with a pocket knife, quick reflexes and a bit of luck.
7. Grenade launchers do not typically shoot rockets. RPGs shoot rocket-propelled grenades yes; most grenade launchers shoot grenades with a charge like a shotgun... but again, this is a TOTALLY different class of weapon.

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Thank you. I'll look to see where I can cross-check this data, while researching the issue.

Okay, Wake, more info...

8. Guns are not "deadly"... people are deadly. A gun in the hands of a sensible person with no criminal intent is pretty harmless.
9. To be particularly deadly, bullets have to be aimed. If you don't hit someone in the brain, spine or heart, they probably will not die quickly. If you just spray bullets around at random, you probably won't kill much as "assault rifle" bullets are actually less deadly than deer rifle bullets on a per-shot basis.
10. The current military wounded-to-killed ratio for gunshot wounds is about 10 to 1. That is, 10 wounded for every 1 killed. In civilian America it is pretty close to that if you get medical aid with reasonable promptness. You'll notice the "batman shooter" wounded a LOT more people than he killed. A grenade launcher probably would have changed the equation quite a bit.. for the worse. Again, the two are really not comparable.
11. Criminals most commonly use handguns or shotguns to commit crime.... civilian model "assault" rifles are very rarely used in criminal attacks.
12. Half the people hating on "assault" rifles can't even define what one is, most of them are not aware that most versions possessed by civilians are NOT machine guns but semi-auto one-shot-per-trigger-pull guns, and many are unaware that there are detachable-magazine rifles that are not remotely "assault weapons".

I'm going to stop there for now, I think I need a drink. :mrgreen:

Wake said:

How much ammo do assault rifles typically contain? I'm also going to count a 2nd ammo cartridge. Each slug from an assault rifle is another chance to kill.

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Okay, first off. Dependent on the magazine, not cartridge. As Goshin already pointed out typically an intermediate assault style rifle has 20-30, some go 40, BTW, and I know G is doing this for convenience, assault rifles are necessarily automatic due to the selector switch. Some guns can accomodate drum feeds that are prone to every problem Goshin pointed out, they are bulky, heavy, and jam at the worst possible time. The cartridge is the round itself, it is the total of the shell casing, bullet, and powder load, plus primer. You can't count another magazine, because you are asking me to solve for an x that has no determined value. Who's to say that someone will only have one additional mag.? Finally, it's not a "slug", only rounds that I know of are considered slugs, a shotgun "bullet".

I think a gym full of kids/adults could be mowed down with a powerful assault rifle, as lethal if not moreso than a grenade launcher. Also, with the grenade launcher there's more of a risk of possibly being caught in the blast radius. With an assault rifle you cannot get caught in a blast radius. If an assault rifle can carry over 100 bullets, it's more lethal than an RPG, imo.

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A crowd can be mowed down by a pistol wielding maniac, or a can of gasoline, or explosives, the latter two will cause more fatalities. If you don't think that launching explosives into a crowd won't have a maximum kill effect I don't know what to tell you, it's not the fire from the explosion that kills the most people, it's the concussion blast and shrapnel. How many did the latest shooter kill with an assault style weapon? 12 with 50 others wounded. How many people get killed by car bombs in the middle east during a typical attack? Upper double digits with triple digit non-fatal casualties during a typical event.

Wake said:

Thank you. I'll look to see where I can cross-check this data, while researching the issue.

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Wake, my dear, no offense, but if Goshin tells you something about guns, people, and crime, you can pretty much take it to the bank. He's not yanking your chain, or trying to pull something over on you. Promise.

LaMidRighter said:

Okay, first off. Dependent on the magazine, not cartridge. As Goshin already pointed out typically an intermediate assault style rifle has 20-30, some go 40, BTW, and I know G is doing this for convenience, assault rifles are necessarily automatic due to the selector switch. Some guns can accomodate drum feeds that are prone to every problem Goshin pointed out, they are bulky, heavy, and jam at the worst possible time. The cartridge is the round itself, it is the total of the shell casing, bullet, and powder load, plus primer. You can't count another magazine, because you are asking me to solve for an x that has no determined value. Who's to say that someone will only have one additional mag.? Finally, it's not a "slug", only rounds that I know of are considered slugs, a shotgun "bullet".

A crowd can be mowed down by a pistol wielding maniac, or a can of gasoline, or explosives, the latter two will cause more fatalities. If you don't think that launching explosives into a crowd won't have a maximum kill effect I don't know what to tell you, it's not the fire from the explosion that kills the most people, it's the concussion blast and shrapnel. How many did the latest shooter kill with an assault style weapon? 12 with 50 others wounded. How many people get killed by car bombs in the middle east during a typical attack? Upper double digits with triple digit non-fatal casualties during a typical event.

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While you and Goshin have provided data from experience, I'm not sure exactly where to verify this. It's not meant out of disrespect, but because undeniable accuracy is one thing that really helps with the debate & discussion process. Since you both have more experience and knowledge than me, I'll err on the side of trusting more of your posts. Hm, I don't think a pistol-wielding maniac can mow down as much people as one can with an assault rifle. Using a can of gasoline would take precision, timing, and planning for maximum effect. Explosives if detonated in the right areas at the right time are very effective.

I'm still leery, because there are probably more factors involving this contrast than both of us have considered. If we factor in the safety of the attacker, I'd say the AR has an edge. For number of shots, I'd say the AR has an advantage b/c and RPG usually has 1-2 rockets. You can kill anyone within the 15-ft radius, but while you're reloading your rocket a squadron of cops could burst into the scene from some random angle and powder you with bullets. with an AR you could turn around quickly at the sound of their approach and if timed correctly you can spray them with bullets. Also, skill is a factor. A skilled attacker with an AR coul kill many if he/she pulls the trigger at exactly the right times in exactly the right directions.

An RPG could wipe out a bus of people over an AR, so the RPG gets an edge on that. RPG works when the attacker know he/she can strike a dense area at the right time. An AR wielder could do the same, but would have to really spray a lot of bullets or be skillful, yet there'd be no risk of being caught in a blast. I'm not sure what the reload speed is between both guns is, either. Also, I count one magazine per one rocket. If the RPG wielder has 3 rockets, the AR wielder would have 3 magazines. You can kill more people with 3 magazines than you can with three rockets, assuming both attackers have a close level of skill.

lizzie said:

Wake, my dear, no offense, but if Goshin tells you something about guns, people, and crime, you can pretty much take it to the bank. He's not yanking your chain, or trying to pull something over on you. Promise.

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I know he has knowledge and experience, and so long as he's respectful his opinion has much weight on the issue. That said, my heart desires unshakeable accuracy, as in objective cites, etc. Sadly in politics that's incredibly difficult to come across.

LaMidRighter said:

...I know G is doing this for convenience, assault rifles are necessarily automatic due to the selector switch....

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Well, yes. To be precise, I keep using the phrase "assault" rifles with quotes, because most people don't know that and use the phrase indiscriminately.

In reality we're talking about military-STYLED rifles, semi-auto with detachable magazines, and NOT actual assault rifles.... but so many people don't know the difference that they figure "scary-looking rifle" = "assault" rifle.... meh, it gives me a headache some days but whaddaya do....

I think of an assault rifle as any rifle that can carry a load of bullets used to mow down scores of people. Sort of like a machine gun.

Wake said:

I know he has knowledge and experience, and so long as he's respectful his opinion has much weight on the issue. That said, my heart desires unshakeable accuracy, as in objective cites, etc. Sadly in politics that's incredibly difficult to come across.

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Wake, honest to my dear and fluffy goodness I DO try to be patient... but when people throw around wildly inaccurate assertions about something they CLEARLY have not studied or even learned the basics of, sometimes I get a little testy... sorry.

Goshin-
struck a nerve did I?

Loose nut on the trigger, is slang some of we have had since our Gawd and Country days... if I meant ****ing idiot I would have said so. I aint shy,

We also use the term 'trigger monkey' for the tactical precision shooter (sniper) because he is just there to do a very simple job, not pooch the trigger squeeze- the spotter is the senior, more experienced man. Many a demonstration my boss and I had the argument of who was going to do what, he really liked shooting, but I was the junior man.

I would truly enjoy hearing some of your house clearing theories, always open to a good tactics dis-CUSS-ion... lol Drunk many a tasty adult beverage going over the pros and cons.

Now once you leave the house and start doing the rural thing you are in my zip code. I live 1 mile from my nearest neighbor and the school worked with multi-county drug task forces, to include the OSBI. Now you want to take out a hostage holder, as in bank robbery gone bad, mad dad, drunk boyfriend, whacked out meth cooker... you get the idea, nothing beats a bolt gun for sub moa accuracy. Is why so many agencies use them. You can drop significant coin to turn some ARs into sub moa, but most of the time they end-up heavy and no longer fun for house clearing. It isn't the distance to bad guy, what is the ball buster it is the erratic movement of all involved, the slight and fleeting amount of head exposed...

Something I have noticed, well not just me but most savvy instructors notice is if the drill allows for multiple shots per target the number of first rounds hits were lower than if only one shot was permitted and the shooter had to wait with his miss or hit until everyone else ran through the drill. In a hostage situation the first round is often the only round, so mag cap isn't an issue as much as a rifle with a solid .5moa or better run. (I use rifles that do better than that, but don't break the bank because they are 'only' bolt guns)

Anywho as one trigger monkey to another I can't wait to meet and swap tactical talk over tasty adult beverages... and I don't need to vette ya...

Wake said:

While you and Goshin have provided data from experience, I'm not sure exactly where to verify this. It's not meant out of disrespect, but because undeniable accuracy is one thing that really helps with the debate & discussion process. Since you both have more experience and knowledge than me, I'll err on the side of trusting more of your posts. Hm, I don't think a pistol-wielding maniac can mow down as much people as one can with an assault rifle. Using a can of gasoline would take precision, timing, and planning for maximum effect. Explosives if detonated in the right areas at the right time are very effective.

I'm still leery, because there are probably more factors involving this contrast than both of us have considered. If we factor in the safety of the attacker, I'd say the AR has an edge. For number of shots, I'd say the AR has an advantage b/c and RPG usually has 1-2 rockets. You can kill anyone within the 15-ft radius, but while you're reloading your rocket a squadron of cops could burst into the scene from some random angle and powder you with bullets. with an AR you could turn around quickly at the sound of their approach and if timed correctly you can spray them with bullets. Also, skill is a factor. A skilled attacker with an AR coul kill many if he/she pulls the trigger at exactly the right times in exactly the right directions.

An RPG could wipe out a bus of people over an AR, so the RPG gets an edge on that. RPG works when the attacker know he/she can strike a dense area at the right time. An AR wielder could do the same, but would have to really spray a lot of bullets or be skillful, yet there'd be no risk of being caught in a blast. I'm not sure what the reload speed is between both guns is, either. Also, I count one magazine per one rocket. If the RPG wielder has 3 rockets, the AR wielder would have 3 magazines. You can kill more people with 3 magazines than you can with three rockets, assuming both attackers have a close level of skill.

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You aren't going to find a ready and handy source to verify what we've been telling you, it comes from years of study in weapons, tactics, war in general. I can tell you that G. is 100% accurate, as are TD and moreso than myself but these are things that take years to learn.
To the "assault rifle" hypothetical, chances are they are going to wear a tactical jacket that carries more than two mags., but if they have one round chambered, one magazine fully loaded, and two backup mags. that's 61-91 rounds. Now, again, with a semi-automatic assault style rifle you have to understand it's an intermediate cartridge and with that many targets there won't be that many vital hits, most will be "shoot to wound" based on target aquisition speed and opportunities to get a hit, the standard hunting rifle will do more damage upon actual hits registered.

Okay, that's out of the way. Now you have the perception of a shorter rifle, this takes your accuracy on target down dramatically over the typical long range rifle and usually limits the effective range of the tactical rifle to around 250 yards for experienced marksmen, though expert marksmen can get that range to a little over 750. Most assailants are not marksmen. Now, take into account the inaccuracy to the average shooter of an intermediate assault style rifle and quadruple it when you add the full auto characteristics of an actual assault rifle. This is why I gave the 1:40 hit ratio, out of every one hit that a lucky shot brings to the non marksmen about 39 to forty will be misses, and due to the intermediate characteristics of the cartridge that one hit better count.

Now, if one is firing the 7.62 NATO round that is a slightly different story, or if there is a heavy tumble effect of the round. Tumbler rounds are even less accurate at distance, and NATO rounds don't tend to fit most tactical civilian rifles. So basically, don't believe everything you see in the movies.

Goshin said:

Well, yes. To be precise, I keep using the phrase "assault" rifles with quotes, because most people don't know that and use the phrase indiscriminately.

In reality we're talking about military-STYLED rifles, semi-auto with detachable magazines, and NOT actual assault rifles.... but so many people don't know the difference that they figure "scary-looking rifle" = "assault" rifle.... meh, it gives me a headache some days but whaddaya do....

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I hear ya. I try to do a service to people and get the media words out of the vernacular, but it does give one a headache trying to unclog that drain.

Wake said:

I think of an assault rifle as any rifle that can carry a load of bullets used to mow down scores of people. Sort of like a machine gun.

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Well therein lies a big part of the problem here.... what you're thinking is highly inaccurate.

You say you want precise and correct data... well how about let's get some before jumping to conclusions so much.

For starters...

assault rifle =/= machine gun. Assault rifle does not equal machine gun. These are two seperate things.

A REAL military assault rifle is capable of burst or autofire, but on a limited basis. A MACHINE GUN is designed to fire full-auto only, and for extended periods of time, commonly using belt-fed ammo and a bipod or tripod or vehicle mount to stablize it.

A (real military selective-fire) assault rifle is far less deadly than a REAL machine gun, because it tends to use a lighter cartridge AND it is not stablized by a mount... the recoil tends to make the muzzle climb in a somewhat unpredictable fashion, making it very hard to achieve any accuracy with anything other than the first round of a given burst. Also the more limited magazine capacity means you'll have to reload a full-auto real-assault-rifle every couple of seconds if used that way... which can be mighty inconvenient.

REAL machine guns are not made for mowing down crowds... they're made for fire suppression. In other words, for scaring the enemy into keeping their heads down by spraying down an area with bullets. Machine guns are an AREA EFFECT weapon.

REAL military assault rifles are a SMALL ARM designed for relative precision. They are typically used in semi-auto mode to avoid wasting ammo, or in burst-mode (2 or 3 round bursts) for certain specialized applications. They are not intended to hose down an area with hundreds of bullets like an actual machine gun.

So an assault rifle is not designed for "mowing down crowds" and isn't really very well suited for this "job".

CIVILIAN versions of "assault" rifles are SEMI auto... one shot fired per pull of the trigger. Each shot has recoil and causes muzzle movement. If you just yank on the trigger and shoot at random you're not going to be very effective in most cases. Civilian "assault" rifles are even less designed for "mowing down crowds" than machine guns or real-military-auto-fire-capable-assault-rifles.

"Assault" rifles are designed for close to medium-longish range combat situations, and are intended to be AIMED, not sprayed with like a water hose.

In short, they aren't designed with mowing down crowds of civilians in mind.... and if you look at the wounded to killed ratio of the Batman shooter you'll see they aren't very effective in that role.

Especially in comparison to, say for example, what one fellow accomplished with a bomb made of fertilizer and diesel fuel....


Oklahoma City bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Oklahoma blast claimed 168 lives, including 19 children under the age of 6[1] and injured more than 680 people.[2] The blast destroyed or damaged 324 buildings within a sixteen-block radius, destroyed or burned 86 cars, and shattered glass in 258 nearby buildings.[3][4] The bomb was estimated to have caused at least $652 million worth of damage

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Lachean said:

Of course I would, I still need one, a revolver, a black powder and a 1911 to complete my collection. [...]

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Here ya go... I held one of these in my hand a couple weeks ago, very sweet -- the only thing that kept me from taking it home was the $1,100 price tag ($800 and it would have been mine ).

A well-executed 1911, and the bobbed grip makes it fit like a glove in the palm of your hand (if you never held a bobbed 1911, you'll be pleasantly surprised). Alloy frame, 8+1, tritium combat sights included. Not sure I like the external extractor but if it doesn't cause problems I could live with it. Slide to frame fit was not as snug as an alloy Kimber they also had on the shelf, but the Smith was simply a sweeter pistol (and a several hundred cheaper than the Kimber).




On topic, yes, I would own an assault rifle. Maybe I already do . . . guns are an interesting piece of machinery, and properly constructed can even imitate art. Responsible ownership and use is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Wake said:

I think of an assault rifle as any rifle that can carry a load of bullets used to mow down scores of people. Sort of like a machine gun.

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That's a fair description.

2razz: @ Goshin)

Karl said:

That's a fair description.

2razz: @ Goshin)

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I'm switching to Tequila, and make it a double.

:2razz:

Karl said:

Here ya go... I held one of these in my hand a couple weeks ago, very sweet -- the only thing that kept me from taking it home was the $1,100 price tag ($800 and it would have been mine ).

A well-executed 1911, and the bobbed grip makes it fit like a glove in the palm of your hand (if you never held a bobbed 1911, you'll be pleasantly surprised). Alloy frame, 8+1, tritium combat sights included. Not sure I like the external extractor but if it doesn't cause problems I could live with it. Slide to frame fit was not as snug as an alloy Kimber they also had on the shelf, but the Smith was simply a sweeter pistol (and a several hundred cheaper than the Kimber).

Photo Credit: Gun Review: Smith & Wesson E-Series SW1911Sc | The Truth About Guns​

On topic, yes, I would own an assault rifle. Maybe I already do . . . guns are an interesting piece of machinery, and properly constructed can even imitate art. Responsible ownership and use is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

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Those are beautiful, I'm actually watching a Nutnfancy 1911 video right now. According to him Smith makes the best 1911's; but I always wanted a Sig or Ruger. My friend swears by Springfield and Colt but those are out of my price range (for now.)

Karl said:

That's a fair description.

2razz: @ Goshin)

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Fair perhaps, maybe a score of people (20) but not scores. All I know is if I had to bet my life on a gun, i'd want the best I could get. Not some low mag capacity, ancient hunting rifle.

Especially in a without rule of law situation where there's no police around and I am my only defense, or had to keep a family safe against superior numbers who are armed.

notquiteright said:

Goshin-
struck a nerve did I?

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You succeeded in very slightly annoying me for a brief moment. There aren't many people I allow to talk down to me on this subject, and that short list includes some pretty well known names. When BLF or KH talks, I shut up and listen. Most other people though have to show me some serious bona-fides first before I'll put up with it with good grace.

Loose nut on the trigger, is slang some of we have had since our Gawd and Country days... if I meant ****ing idiot I would have said so. I aint shy,

We also use the term 'trigger monkey' for the tactical precision shooter (sniper) because he is just there to do a very simple job, not pooch the trigger squeeze- the spotter is the senior, more experienced man. Many a demonstration my boss and I had the argument of who was going to do what, he really liked shooting, but I was the junior man.

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New one on me. I wasn't in the service; the Army found my hearing to be substandard shortly before Desert Storm and denied me enlistment. I served my community as a law enforcement officer instead. About half my good friends are former or current service military, but I never heard "loose nut on the trigger" used in a non-derogatory fashion. I'll take your word on it for the sake of good faith.

I would truly enjoy hearing some of your house clearing theories, always open to a good tactics dis-CUSS-ion... lol Drunk many a tasty adult beverage going over the pros and cons.

Now once you leave the house and start doing the rural thing you are in my zip code. I live 1 mile from my nearest neighbor and the school worked with multi-county drug task forces, to include the OSBI. Now you want to take out a hostage holder, as in bank robbery gone bad, mad dad, drunk boyfriend, whacked out meth cooker... you get the idea, nothing beats a bolt gun for sub moa accuracy. Is why so many agencies use them. You can drop significant coin to turn some ARs into sub moa, but most of the time they end-up heavy and no longer fun for house clearing. It isn't the distance to bad guy, what is the ball buster it is the erratic movement of all involved, the slight and fleeting amount of head exposed...

Something I have noticed, well not just me but most savvy instructors notice is if the drill allows for multiple shots per target the number of first rounds hits were lower than if only one shot was permitted and the shooter had to wait with his miss or hit until everyone else ran through the drill. In a hostage situation the first round is often the only round, so mag cap isn't an issue as much as a rifle with a solid .5moa or better run. (I use rifles that do better than that, but don't break the bank because they are 'only' bolt guns)

Anywho as one trigger monkey to another I can't wait to meet and swap tactical talk over tasty adult beverages... and I don't need to vette ya...

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Suits me.