View Poll Results: Would you own an assault Rifle? Why?

Voters
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  • No! Only crazies own assault rifles.

    15 11.11%
  • No, they are too expensive!

    7 5.19%
  • No, no need to.

    41 30.37%
  • Yes, for self defense

    44 32.59%
  • Yes, for recreation and sport

    52 38.52%
  • Yes, to perform my patriotic duty if the nation is invaded

    43 31.85%
  • Yes, because it's my constiutional right

    45 33.33%
  • Yes, because I'm one of the CRAZIES!!! hahahahaha

    15 11.11%
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Thread: Why would you own an assault rifle?

  1. #691
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    Re: Why would you own an assault rifle?

    Goshin-
    struck a nerve did I?

    Loose nut on the trigger, is slang some of we have had since our Gawd and Country days... if I meant ****ing idiot I would have said so. I aint shy,

    We also use the term 'trigger monkey' for the tactical precision shooter (sniper) because he is just there to do a very simple job, not pooch the trigger squeeze- the spotter is the senior, more experienced man. Many a demonstration my boss and I had the argument of who was going to do what, he really liked shooting, but I was the junior man.

    I would truly enjoy hearing some of your house clearing theories, always open to a good tactics dis-CUSS-ion... lol Drunk many a tasty adult beverage going over the pros and cons.

    Now once you leave the house and start doing the rural thing you are in my zip code. I live 1 mile from my nearest neighbor and the school worked with multi-county drug task forces, to include the OSBI. Now you want to take out a hostage holder, as in bank robbery gone bad, mad dad, drunk boyfriend, whacked out meth cooker... you get the idea, nothing beats a bolt gun for sub moa accuracy. Is why so many agencies use them. You can drop significant coin to turn some ARs into sub moa, but most of the time they end-up heavy and no longer fun for house clearing. It isn't the distance to bad guy, what is the ball buster it is the erratic movement of all involved, the slight and fleeting amount of head exposed...

    Something I have noticed, well not just me but most savvy instructors notice is if the drill allows for multiple shots per target the number of first rounds hits were lower than if only one shot was permitted and the shooter had to wait with his miss or hit until everyone else ran through the drill. In a hostage situation the first round is often the only round, so mag cap isn't an issue as much as a rifle with a solid .5moa or better run. (I use rifles that do better than that, but don't break the bank because they are 'only' bolt guns)

    Anywho as one trigger monkey to another I can't wait to meet and swap tactical talk over tasty adult beverages... and I don't need to vette ya...

  2. #692
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    Re: Why would you own an assault rifle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    While you and Goshin have provided data from experience, I'm not sure exactly where to verify this. It's not meant out of disrespect, but because undeniable accuracy is one thing that really helps with the debate & discussion process. Since you both have more experience and knowledge than me, I'll err on the side of trusting more of your posts. Hm, I don't think a pistol-wielding maniac can mow down as much people as one can with an assault rifle. Using a can of gasoline would take precision, timing, and planning for maximum effect. Explosives if detonated in the right areas at the right time are very effective.

    I'm still leery, because there are probably more factors involving this contrast than both of us have considered. If we factor in the safety of the attacker, I'd say the AR has an edge. For number of shots, I'd say the AR has an advantage b/c and RPG usually has 1-2 rockets. You can kill anyone within the 15-ft radius, but while you're reloading your rocket a squadron of cops could burst into the scene from some random angle and powder you with bullets. with an AR you could turn around quickly at the sound of their approach and if timed correctly you can spray them with bullets. Also, skill is a factor. A skilled attacker with an AR coul kill many if he/she pulls the trigger at exactly the right times in exactly the right directions.

    An RPG could wipe out a bus of people over an AR, so the RPG gets an edge on that. RPG works when the attacker know he/she can strike a dense area at the right time. An AR wielder could do the same, but would have to really spray a lot of bullets or be skillful, yet there'd be no risk of being caught in a blast. I'm not sure what the reload speed is between both guns is, either. Also, I count one magazine per one rocket. If the RPG wielder has 3 rockets, the AR wielder would have 3 magazines. You can kill more people with 3 magazines than you can with three rockets, assuming both attackers have a close level of skill.
    You aren't going to find a ready and handy source to verify what we've been telling you, it comes from years of study in weapons, tactics, war in general. I can tell you that G. is 100% accurate, as are TD and moreso than myself but these are things that take years to learn.
    To the "assault rifle" hypothetical, chances are they are going to wear a tactical jacket that carries more than two mags., but if they have one round chambered, one magazine fully loaded, and two backup mags. that's 61-91 rounds. Now, again, with a semi-automatic assault style rifle you have to understand it's an intermediate cartridge and with that many targets there won't be that many vital hits, most will be "shoot to wound" based on target aquisition speed and opportunities to get a hit, the standard hunting rifle will do more damage upon actual hits registered.

    Okay, that's out of the way. Now you have the perception of a shorter rifle, this takes your accuracy on target down dramatically over the typical long range rifle and usually limits the effective range of the tactical rifle to around 250 yards for experienced marksmen, though expert marksmen can get that range to a little over 750. Most assailants are not marksmen. Now, take into account the inaccuracy to the average shooter of an intermediate assault style rifle and quadruple it when you add the full auto characteristics of an actual assault rifle. This is why I gave the 1:40 hit ratio, out of every one hit that a lucky shot brings to the non marksmen about 39 to forty will be misses, and due to the intermediate characteristics of the cartridge that one hit better count.

    Now, if one is firing the 7.62 NATO round that is a slightly different story, or if there is a heavy tumble effect of the round. Tumbler rounds are even less accurate at distance, and NATO rounds don't tend to fit most tactical civilian rifles. So basically, don't believe everything you see in the movies.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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  3. #693
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    Re: Why would you own an assault rifle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Well, yes. To be precise, I keep using the phrase "assault" rifles with quotes, because most people don't know that and use the phrase indiscriminately.

    In reality we're talking about military-STYLED rifles, semi-auto with detachable magazines, and NOT actual assault rifles.... but so many people don't know the difference that they figure "scary-looking rifle" = "assault" rifle.... meh, it gives me a headache some days but whaddaya do....
    I hear ya. I try to do a service to people and get the media words out of the vernacular, but it does give one a headache trying to unclog that drain.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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  4. #694
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    Re: Why would you own an assault rifle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    I think of an assault rifle as any rifle that can carry a load of bullets used to mow down scores of people. Sort of like a machine gun.

    Well therein lies a big part of the problem here.... what you're thinking is highly inaccurate.

    You say you want precise and correct data... well how about let's get some before jumping to conclusions so much.

    For starters...

    assault rifle =/= machine gun. Assault rifle does not equal machine gun. These are two seperate things.

    A REAL military assault rifle is capable of burst or autofire, but on a limited basis. A MACHINE GUN is designed to fire full-auto only, and for extended periods of time, commonly using belt-fed ammo and a bipod or tripod or vehicle mount to stablize it.

    A (real military selective-fire) assault rifle is far less deadly than a REAL machine gun, because it tends to use a lighter cartridge AND it is not stablized by a mount... the recoil tends to make the muzzle climb in a somewhat unpredictable fashion, making it very hard to achieve any accuracy with anything other than the first round of a given burst. Also the more limited magazine capacity means you'll have to reload a full-auto real-assault-rifle every couple of seconds if used that way... which can be mighty inconvenient.

    REAL machine guns are not made for mowing down crowds... they're made for fire suppression. In other words, for scaring the enemy into keeping their heads down by spraying down an area with bullets. Machine guns are an AREA EFFECT weapon.

    REAL military assault rifles are a SMALL ARM designed for relative precision. They are typically used in semi-auto mode to avoid wasting ammo, or in burst-mode (2 or 3 round bursts) for certain specialized applications. They are not intended to hose down an area with hundreds of bullets like an actual machine gun.

    So an assault rifle is not designed for "mowing down crowds" and isn't really very well suited for this "job".

    CIVILIAN versions of "assault" rifles are SEMI auto... one shot fired per pull of the trigger. Each shot has recoil and causes muzzle movement. If you just yank on the trigger and shoot at random you're not going to be very effective in most cases. Civilian "assault" rifles are even less designed for "mowing down crowds" than machine guns or real-military-auto-fire-capable-assault-rifles.

    "Assault" rifles are designed for close to medium-longish range combat situations, and are intended to be AIMED, not sprayed with like a water hose.

    In short, they aren't designed with mowing down crowds of civilians in mind.... and if you look at the wounded to killed ratio of the Batman shooter you'll see they aren't very effective in that role.

    Especially in comparison to, say for example, what one fellow accomplished with a bomb made of fertilizer and diesel fuel....


    Oklahoma City bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Oklahoma blast claimed 168 lives, including 19 children under the age of 6[1] and injured more than 680 people.[2] The blast destroyed or damaged 324 buildings within a sixteen-block radius, destroyed or burned 86 cars, and shattered glass in 258 nearby buildings.[3][4] The bomb was estimated to have caused at least $652 million worth of damage

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  5. #695
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    Re: Why would you own an assault rifle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lachean View Post
    Of course I would, I still need one, a revolver, a black powder and a 1911 to complete my collection. [...]
    Here ya go... I held one of these in my hand a couple weeks ago, very sweet -- the only thing that kept me from taking it home was the $1,100 price tag ($800 and it would have been mine ).

    A well-executed 1911, and the bobbed grip makes it fit like a glove in the palm of your hand (if you never held a bobbed 1911, you'll be pleasantly surprised). Alloy frame, 8+1, tritium combat sights included. Not sure I like the external extractor but if it doesn't cause problems I could live with it. Slide to frame fit was not as snug as an alloy Kimber they also had on the shelf, but the Smith was simply a sweeter pistol (and a several hundred cheaper than the Kimber).




    On topic, yes, I would own an assault rifle. Maybe I already do . . . guns are an interesting piece of machinery, and properly constructed can even imitate art. Responsible ownership and use is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
    Last edited by Karl; 08-01-12 at 09:59 PM.

  6. #696
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    Re: Why would you own an assault rifle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    I think of an assault rifle as any rifle that can carry a load of bullets used to mow down scores of people. Sort of like a machine gun.
    That's a fair description.

    ( @ Goshin)

  7. #697
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    Re: Why would you own an assault rifle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    That's a fair description.

    ( @ Goshin)

    I'm switching to Tequila, and make it a double.


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  8. #698
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    Re: Why would you own an assault rifle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Here ya go... I held one of these in my hand a couple weeks ago, very sweet -- the only thing that kept me from taking it home was the $1,100 price tag ($800 and it would have been mine ).

    A well-executed 1911, and the bobbed grip makes it fit like a glove in the palm of your hand (if you never held a bobbed 1911, you'll be pleasantly surprised). Alloy frame, 8+1, tritium combat sights included. Not sure I like the external extractor but if it doesn't cause problems I could live with it. Slide to frame fit was not as snug as an alloy Kimber they also had on the shelf, but the Smith was simply a sweeter pistol (and a several hundred cheaper than the Kimber).




    On topic, yes, I would own an assault rifle. Maybe I already do . . . guns are an interesting piece of machinery, and properly constructed can even imitate art. Responsible ownership and use is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
    Those are beautiful, I'm actually watching a Nutnfancy 1911 video right now. According to him Smith makes the best 1911's; but I always wanted a Sig or Ruger. My friend swears by Springfield and Colt but those are out of my price range (for now.)
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 08-01-12 at 10:09 PM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  9. #699
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    Re: Why would you own an assault rifle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    That's a fair description.

    ( @ Goshin)
    Fair perhaps, maybe a score of people (20) but not scores. All I know is if I had to bet my life on a gun, i'd want the best I could get. Not some low mag capacity, ancient hunting rifle.

    Especially in a without rule of law situation where there's no police around and I am my only defense, or had to keep a family safe against superior numbers who are armed.
    Last edited by Spartacus FPV; 08-01-12 at 10:11 PM.
    Haymarket's "support" of the 2nd Amendment, a right he believes we never had.
    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    no. You cannot lose rights you do not have in the first place. There is no such thing as the right to have any weapon of your choice regardless of any other consideration. It simply does not exist.

  10. #700
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    Re: Why would you own an assault rifle?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Goshin-
    struck a nerve did I?
    You succeeded in very slightly annoying me for a brief moment. There aren't many people I allow to talk down to me on this subject, and that short list includes some pretty well known names. When BLF or KH talks, I shut up and listen. Most other people though have to show me some serious bona-fides first before I'll put up with it with good grace.

    Loose nut on the trigger, is slang some of we have had since our Gawd and Country days... if I meant ****ing idiot I would have said so. I aint shy,

    We also use the term 'trigger monkey' for the tactical precision shooter (sniper) because he is just there to do a very simple job, not pooch the trigger squeeze- the spotter is the senior, more experienced man. Many a demonstration my boss and I had the argument of who was going to do what, he really liked shooting, but I was the junior man.
    New one on me. I wasn't in the service; the Army found my hearing to be substandard shortly before Desert Storm and denied me enlistment. I served my community as a law enforcement officer instead. About half my good friends are former or current service military, but I never heard "loose nut on the trigger" used in a non-derogatory fashion. I'll take your word on it for the sake of good faith.





    I would truly enjoy hearing some of your house clearing theories, always open to a good tactics dis-CUSS-ion... lol Drunk many a tasty adult beverage going over the pros and cons.

    Now once you leave the house and start doing the rural thing you are in my zip code. I live 1 mile from my nearest neighbor and the school worked with multi-county drug task forces, to include the OSBI. Now you want to take out a hostage holder, as in bank robbery gone bad, mad dad, drunk boyfriend, whacked out meth cooker... you get the idea, nothing beats a bolt gun for sub moa accuracy. Is why so many agencies use them. You can drop significant coin to turn some ARs into sub moa, but most of the time they end-up heavy and no longer fun for house clearing. It isn't the distance to bad guy, what is the ball buster it is the erratic movement of all involved, the slight and fleeting amount of head exposed...

    Something I have noticed, well not just me but most savvy instructors notice is if the drill allows for multiple shots per target the number of first rounds hits were lower than if only one shot was permitted and the shooter had to wait with his miss or hit until everyone else ran through the drill. In a hostage situation the first round is often the only round, so mag cap isn't an issue as much as a rifle with a solid .5moa or better run. (I use rifles that do better than that, but don't break the bank because they are 'only' bolt guns)

    Anywho as one trigger monkey to another I can't wait to meet and swap tactical talk over tasty adult beverages... and I don't need to vette ya...

    Suits me.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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