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America's greatest sin [W:264]

What is America's greatest sin?

  • The war for independence

    Votes: 1 1.2%
  • Slavery

    Votes: 27 31.4%
  • Indians / native Americans

    Votes: 31 36.0%
  • Hiroshima, Nagasaki bombing

    Votes: 3 3.5%
  • The war in Vietnam

    Votes: 1 1.2%
  • The FED

    Votes: 6 7.0%
  • The Cold war

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Civil war

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 14 16.3%
  • I can't tell

    Votes: 3 3.5%

  • Total voters
    86
Then it kind of follows that those posts are in themselves pointless. Why not just stop wasting your own and everyone else's time?

Mostly because the alternative means of relieving my stress involves fertilizer, gasoline, and U-Haul vehicles.
 
Mostly because the alternative means of relieving my stress involves fertilizer, gasoline, and U-Haul vehicles.
Obviously better is discussion rather than destruction, but not all accept this (Japanese, Germans of the previous century) and others...
But,Tigger, how does it feel to be in such a minority ???
 
But, Tigger, how does it feel to be in such a minority ???

Absolutely wonderful, earthworm. When you know you're RIGHT, there is no need to worry about whether or not anyone else agrees with you or not.
 
Mostly because the alternative means of relieving my stress involves fertilizer, gasoline, and U-Haul vehicles.

For anyone in Homeland Security reading this, experience tells me that he's not altogether joking. You might want to take a note of the IP.
 
Enemies, no; but we will never be allies either. That places you in a very unpleasant grey area; mostly due to your status as a Moderator. If it weren't for that you'd have been on the Ignore List a long time ago.


Really? How remarkable. I didn't realize you found me so unpleasant. I'm hardly your most vocal critic, you know.... hell I've given you more benefit-of-the-doubt than most, I'd say.

I must confess that I am very curious as to why; or rather, specifically what you think is so bad about me that you'd prefer not to even talk to me or see my posts. You can say whatever it is plainly and without fear of retribution... after all, I could hardly infract you for answering a question when I asked you to answer it bluntly and plainly. Or PM me and say it if you prefer. I'm not trying to start anything, I am genuinely curious.
 
When you know you're RIGHT, there is no need to worry about whether or not anyone else agrees with you or not.

And aparently, not making sense, not being coherant, not being logical and not matching the evidence doesn't bother you either.
 
Really? How remarkable. I didn't realize you found me so unpleasant. I'm hardly your most vocal critic, you know.... hell I've given you more benefit-of-the-doubt than most, I'd say.

I find about 98% of humanity unpleasant enough that I don't want to have anything to do with it, Goshin. Trust me, you are by no means the only person who falls into this category. More often than not it's about philosophy more than anything else. Regardless of how we interact with each other.

I must confess that I am very curious as to why; or rather, specifically what you think is so bad about me that you'd prefer not to even talk to me or see my posts. You can say whatever it is plainly and without fear of retribution... after all, I could hardly infract you for answering a question when I asked you to answer it bluntly and plainly. Or PM me and say it if you prefer. I'm not trying to start anything, I am genuinely curious.

It's philosophy. Plain and simple. Just as it is with 97-98% of the other human beings out there in the world today.

And aparently, not making sense, not being coherant, not being logical and not matching the evidence doesn't bother you either.

Nope.
 
Just a note on this. I was in the USAF for 4 years. I was punished several times for doing my job well, never rewarded. I kept computers up and running for places like SAC and targeting in Vietnam. My value was very low. And my superiors would generally express your POV. I should be happy to read about how you'd value me, but I have some uncertainty.

Me thinks theres alot more to do this that the simplicity you have presented....Theres always personalities in play and of course there are differences in post to post...but my observation was a personal one...not a statement on the military wide attitude....I stand by my statement that one american troop is worth untold numbers of our enemies once were in it....and to think anything different is just wrong to me personally
 
It's philosophy

Philosophy assumes logic and coherance and some appeal to reason ...

No its not philosophy, its nonsense.
 
Philosophy assumes logic and coherance and some appeal to reason ... No its not philosophy, its nonsense.

One man's trash is another man's treasure; or so they say. I truly could not care any less what you (or anyone else) think about my viewpoints on the world. I know what I believe. The philosophy, code, and worldview that I live by. Whether anyone else likes or agrees with it means nothing to me. I learned early on in life that trusting or having faith in others was a waste of my time and a sure way to get hurt in many different ways. I have seen the darkness in the human heart and understand that one must look out for one's own best interests because nobody else is going to.
 
I never said faith in others, I said logic, reason, evidence and coherancy ....
 
I never said faith in others, I said logic, reason, evidence and coherancy ....

Realize that not everyone uses "reason, and logic" as the basis for their view of the world. Some of us use other criteria; like Tradition, Individual Experience, and Faith to determine the way we view the world and the philosophies that we hold dear.
 
Tradition

Which is useless unless justified logically or by the evidence.

Individual Experience

Which is a stupid way to analyse things unless rationally justified.


Which also needs to be reasonably based.

Just believing what you feel like believiing dispite any logic, reason or evidence, has such a giant chance of error and falacy basing your beliefs on that makes you an idiot ... Hell thats basically the definitino of an idiot, you get things wrong because you cannot or do not use tested methods of finding truth like logic, evidence and reason, and instead rely on whatever the hell you feel like which almost always ends up as false.
 
Just believing what you feel like believiing dispite any logic, reason or evidence, has such a giant chance of error and falacy basing your beliefs on that makes you an idiot ... Hell thats basically the definitino of an idiot, you get things wrong because you cannot or do not use tested methods of finding truth like logic, evidence and reason, and instead rely on whatever the hell you feel like which almost always ends up as false.

There is no evidence in Personal Experience? There is no logic or reason in Traditions which have been kept for hundreds if not thousands of years? Do you believe in anything that you can't personally quantify and prove beyond any scientific doubt? If not, I truly feel sorry for you. You're missing out on a whole spectrum of life. Oh.....

Be careful.... When you argue with Idiots we drag you down to our level and beat you with experience.
 
Do you believe in anything that you can't personally quantify and prove beyond any scientific doubt? If not, I truly feel sorry for you. You're missing out on a whole spectrum of life. Oh.....

I believe in things rational to believe it, you don't need to prove anything, you just need reason ...

Personal experience is valid unless it has a defeater, traditions are sometimes logicl and rational, sometimes not, blindly supporting traditions ... That arn't even real traditions anymore, is illogical.
 
Personal experience is valid unless it has a defeater, traditions are sometimes logicl and rational, sometimes not, blindly supporting traditions ... That arn't even real traditions anymore, is illogical.

You're right that many of those traditions have been abandoned, and society is infinitely worse for it a century later than we would have been, had they been maintained.
 
You're right that many of those traditions have been abandoned, and society is infinitely worse for it a century later than we would have been, had they been maintained.

This is still to be proven. "If" is a dangerous word.
 
This is still to be proven. "If" is a dangerous word.

I would whole-heartedly disagree that it has yet to be proven, Canell. I see the proof of it every single day, as I move through society.
 
No tigger, there is no such thing as the traditions, which ones are you talking about? middle ages? Roman era? Chinese empire? Rennesance?
 
No tigger, there is no such thing as the traditions, which ones are you talking about? middle ages? Roman era? Chinese empire? Rennesance?

When you look at the core of each of those societies you find quite a few of the values of those different cultures and societies are common. It is those commonalities that create real Tradition, and the ideal of Universal Morality that we have been "discussing" for the last week or so.
 
A: You'd have to include the vlaues of today.
B: In your cannon you include things like slavery and misathropy, and total aristocracy ... all of which go again pleny of traditions.
C: What goes in and out of traditions is totally arbitrary.
 
A: You'd have to include the vlaues of today.

No, not really. Mostly because today's society (especially here in the United States) has no real values.

B: In your cannon you include things like slavery and misathropy, and total aristocracy ... all of which go again pleny of traditions.

There are lots of things that go against many Traditions. What we're looking for here are the relative constants that appear in almost all of the successful cultures and societies of history. Things like Patriarchal Society, Gender Roles, A Strong Code of Morals and Values, etc...

C: What goes in and out of traditions is totally arbitrary.

I don't agree with that. I believe that there is an instinctive human trait to lean towards those cultures and societies whose values have proven to be the most successful. When you see something appearing in most cultures, there has to be some reason behind it. I tend to believe that reason is the human instinct.
 
I don't agree with that. I believe that there is an instinctive human trait to lean towards those cultures and societies whose values have proven to be the most successful. When you see something appearing in most cultures, there has to be some reason behind it. I tend to believe that reason is the human instinct.

Then why is today so bereft of values, as you see it?
 
Then why is today so bereft of values, as you see it?

Good question. The answer is unfortunately horribly simple....

As RGacky has so willingly shown us in the last 24 hours, modern society is no longer interested in Tradition, Instinct, or things of that sort. They want something Reasoned, Locical, or Provable that they can wrap their head around. Additionally, we have fallen into the silly notion of Equality as the be-all and end-all of society. For that reason we are no longer willing to look at the concepts of Right and Wrong as Black & White concepts. We now live in a Grey society, where what one Wants to do or Can do is now more important than what one Should do.
 
Iraq and totally disenfranchising US Citizens with free trade.

All the things you mention are normal decisions.

Drop 2 bombs or lose 2,000,000 Americans. THATS a no brainer.
 
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