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America's greatest sin [W:264]

What is America's greatest sin?

  • The war for independence

    Votes: 1 1.2%

  • Slavery

    Votes: 27 31.4%

  • Indians / native Americans

    Votes: 31 36.0%

  • Hiroshima, Nagasaki bombing

    Votes: 3 3.5%

  • The war in Vietnam

    Votes: 1 1.2%

  • The FED

    Votes: 6 7.0%

  • The Cold war

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • The Civil war

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Other

    Votes: 14 16.3%

  • I can't tell

    Votes: 3 3.5%
  • Total voters
    86
Londoner said:
UN Convention on Human Rights (no genocide, political prisoners, etc). Pretty much every rich-world country currently follows that,
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Really? Just a few words in response to this idea.... Belmarsh, Guantanamo, Extraordinary Rendition.
 
Really? Just a few words in response to this idea.... Belmarsh, Guantanamo, Extraordinary Rendition.
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Sure, there are breaches, and the US isn't a signatory of the Human Rights Convention anyway, or at least of the Court that's meant to uphold it. What I'm essentially saying is that all societies will eventually progress to liberal democracy.
 
Andalublue said:
Everyone turns up to help, it's just your media gives you the impression that only the US are there. A bit like Hollywood trotting out the old myth that the US won WWII virtually single-handed. As a good example, EU-sourced aid to Haiti amounted to a lot more than US aid did. Something like $400m to $220m.
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The US gives $220M and the rest of the world gives $400M. The US now makes up roughly 1/3 or the "Civilized World"? Good to know. By the way, why don't I ever see video of aircraft carriers, medical ships, etc.... from other countries hanging around off the coast of some ravaged nation; or is the US Media just not showing that stuff too?

I've got a great idea.... the next time there's a major incident like this, how about if the US just doesn't show up. No money. No ships. No people. How do you think that will work out? I'd be very interested to see.

Andalublue said:
Where do you get the idea that the US released nations from their post-WWII debts? Post-war reconstruction loans were repaid in full, with interest. Marshall Plan grants were just that, grants, not loans and let's not forget that all goods purchased with US money had to be from US suppliers, so equally benefitting US interests.
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That is most definitely not what I was taught. Then again I'm not sure why we gave Japan, England, France, Germany, Italy, etc.... ANY money for reconstruction after the war. Definitely should not have been anything in terms of grants.
 
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Tigger said:
We are not friends sir, dear or otherwise.

If this was a dictatorship of people like you I'd rather be dead, thank you very much.
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And here I was thinking that you and I simply had a polite Gentlemen's Disagreement on things.... well thank you for clarifying where we stand. I suppose I forgot that you think everyone that disagrees with you in any particular ought to be killed or exiled to some dark corner of the world.

Perhaps one of these days you'll learn to recognize the value of a hand extended in an offer of friendship.
 
Goshin said:
Perhaps one of these days you'll learn to recognize the value of a hand extended in an offer of friendship.
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Sorry, but that's not likely to happen. At least not outside of a very small segment of the population. Too much chance of getting burned when you get involved with people you haven't vetted ahead of time or who don't at least have others you know and trust to speak for them.
 
Tigger said:
The US gives $220M and the rest of the world gives $400M. The US now makes up roughly 1/3 or the "Civilized World"? Good to know.
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No, the EU gave $400m, the rest of the world gave even more.
By the way, why don't I ever see video of aircraft carriers, medical ships, etc.... from other countries hanging around off the coast of some ravaged nation; or is the US Media just not showing that stuff too?
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You got that right. Or perhaps you just didn't want to see what goes on. This wasn't a US-exclusive operation, not even remotely!
I've got a great idea.... the next time there's a major incident like this, how about if the US just doesn't show up. No money. No ships. No people. How do you think that will work out? I'd be very interested to see.
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Well, that would have to be a decision for your own consciences.
That is most definitely not what I was taught. Then again I'm not sure why we gave Japan, England, France, Germany, Italy, etc.... ANY money for reconstruction after the war. Definitely should not have been anything in terms of grants.
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Well, economically speaking the US was a big beneficiary of not having hosted any of the main event.
 
PeteEU said:
Reality TV shows...
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Much as I'd like to place the blame for these with the US, I think you'll find that the British (Idol, Survivor, X-Factor, Dancing with the Stars/on Ice etc), Dutch (Big Brother, Fear Factor) and Spanish (Operación Triunfo) TV industries are more to blame for this particular disease.
 
Andalublue said:
Well, that would have to be a decision for your own consciences.
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My conscience is just fine, thank you very much.

Andalublue said:
Well, economically speaking the US was a big beneficiary of not having hosted any of the main event.
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I think the people in Hawaii might disagree with your assertion. Besides, I'd rather have the physical destruction that Europe underwent than the moral destruction that the post-war boom brought to the USA.
 
Tigger said:
I think the people in Hawaii might disagree with your assertion.
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They might, but I'd point out that the Japanese raid on Pearl Harbour claimed just 56 civilian lives, and 1400 military lives. That's fewer casualties than 2 nights of the London Blitz, which actually continued for 6 months and claimed 27 times more civilian casualties (c. 41,500) than the entire number of US civilian casualties (1,700) throughout the entire war. So, I wouldn't play that game, if I were you.
 
Andalublue said:
They might, but I'd point out that the Japanese raid on Pearl Harbour claimed just 56 civilian lives, and 1400 military lives. That's fewer casualties than 2 nights of the London Blitz, which actually continued for 6 months and claimed 27 times more civilian casualties (c. 41,500) than the entire number of US civilian casualties (1,700) throughout the entire war. So, I wouldn't play that game, if I were you.
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Remember, I value the lives of EACH AND EVERY ONE of those 1,700 American Civilians and the hundreds of thousands of American GI's, Marines, Airmen, and Sailors who died more highly than the entire non-American population of the world, then or now.

In math terms: 1 American > The Entire Non-American World Population
 
Tigger said:
Remember, I value the lives of EACH AND EVERY ONE of those 1,700 American Civilians and the hundreds of thousands of American GI's, Marines, Airmen, and Sailors who died more highly than the entire non-American population of the world, then or now.

In math terms: 1 American > The Entire Non-American World Population
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Unless they are gay, smoke, drink, leave the country, are female and talk or do anything else that you don't approve of. Then it's Death Penalty, right?
 
Andalublue said:
Thanks for reminding me why I loathe nationalism.
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You're very welcome.

ecofarm said:
Unless they are gay, smoke, drink, leave the country, are female and talk or do anything else that you don't approve of. Then it's Death Penalty, right?
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You will notice that I said "Americans", no "americans" eco. There's a difference so far as I'm concerned. Though being gay, smoking, and leaving the country would be the only actual capital charges on that list of yours.
 
Tigger said:
You will notice that I said "Americans", no "americans" eco. There's a difference so far as I'm concerned. Though being gay, smoking, and leaving the country would be the only actual capital charges on that list of yours.
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I'm guessing that something in excess of 70% of those WWII GIs would have found themselves on Tigger's Death Row for smoking and homsex. Provided he's going to bend the rules, all of those who served in both the European and Pacific theatres will have had to leave the country.
 
Andalublue said:
I'm guessing that something in excess of 70% of those WWII GIs would have found themselves on Tigger's Death Row for smoking and homsex. Provided he's going to bend the rules, all of those who served in both the European and Pacific theatres will have had to leave the country.
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We have a practice here in the United States that we don't condemn people for things they did before they were illegal. I'm all for a general amnesty for those who have done these things in the past, but once the new regulations are in place, they would be subject to deportation, incarceration, or other penalties.
 
Andalublue said:
Really? Just a few words in response to this idea.... Belmarsh, Guantanamo, Extraordinary Rendition.
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Just a few words...German Prisoner of war camps, Japanese torture camps...Hanoi Hilton...videos of americans beheaded slowly...
Its outright pukeable the way some opine over our enemies having it made in gitmo compared to the way americans have always been treated.

Tigger is absolutely RIGHT... we ALL should put americans first...and I agree an american life is worth more than the life of our enemy during war
Any of you that suffer from any illusions about how many american civilians would die and how uncaring the rest of the world would be if they get to us on our soil..think again... just one marine, one GI, one sailor, one airmen... is worth untold numbers of our enemies to me....once your in it WIN IT..
 
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lpast said:
Just a few words...German Prisoner of war camps, Japanese torture camps...Hanoi Hilton...videos of americans beheaded slowly...
Its outright pukeable the way some opine over our enemies having it made in gitmo compared to the way americans have always been treated.

Tigger is absolutely RIGHT... we ALL should put americans first...and I agree an american life is worth more than the life of our enemy during war
Any of you that suffer from any illusions about how many american civilians would die and how uncaring the rest of the world would be if they get to us on our soil..think again... just one marine, one GI, one sailor, one airmen... is worth untold numbers of our enemies to me....once your in it WIN IT..
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Oh, cry me a river! The whole sorry victim mentality is fairly nauseating wherever it comes from. Coming from the richest, most powerful nation on Earth with the largest and best-equipped military is frankly laughable. What you clearly and deliberately ignored in Tigger's posts is that he doesn't make distinctions between American lives and those of America's enemies, he makes the distinction between Americans and ALL non-Americans, friend and foe alike.

If you want to claim moral superiority over your brutal and heinous enemies you need to show the world that you behave in a morally superior manner to how they behave. The "well, they do it too!" defence is a little pathetic.

As Americans you can decide on how you value human life according to whatever criteria you decide upon. I'll leave you and Tigger to work that out for yourselves.
 
Andalublue said:
Oh, cry me a river! The whole sorry victim mentality is fairly nauseating wherever it comes from. Coming from the richest, most powerful nation on Earth with the largest and best-equipped military is frankly laughable. What you clearly and deliberately ignored in Tigger's posts is that he doesn't make distinctions between American lives and those of America's enemies, he makes the distinction between Americans and ALL non-Americans, friend and foe alike.

If you want to claim moral superiority over your brutal and heinous enemies you need to show the world that you behave in a morally superior manner to how they behave. The "well, they do it too!" defence is a little pathetic.

As Americans you can decide on how you value human life according to whatever criteria you decide upon. I'll leave you and Tigger to work that out for yourselves.
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Know what you go off on tangents because you think more of yourself than others do...no one said victim...YOU DID....I said this...now please pay attention so you dont have to distort my meaning or what ive said...ready ?

One marine, Gi, sailor or airmen is worth untold numbers of our enemies during war...ONCE YOUR IN IT.....WIN IT
 
lpast said:
Know what you go off on tangents because you think more of yourself than others do...no one said victim...YOU DID....I said this...now please pay attention so you dont have to distort my meaning or what ive said...ready ?

One marine, Gi, sailor or airmen is worth untold numbers of our enemies during war...ONCE YOUR IN IT.....WIN IT
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This statement of yours:
Any of you that suffer from any illusions about how many american civilians would die and how uncaring the rest of the world would be if they get to us on our soil..think again...
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screams victimhood to me. Uncaring, indeed.
 
lpast said:
Know what you go off on tangents because you think more of yourself than others do...no one said victim...YOU DID....I said this...now please pay attention so you dont have to distort my meaning or what ive said...ready ?

One marine, Gi, sailor or airmen is worth untold numbers of our enemies during war...ONCE YOUR IN IT.....WIN IT
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What do you consider "enemy"? Is one marine, GI, sailor, or airmen worth untold numbers of another nations civilians too?
 
Andalublue said:
This statement of yours: screams victimhood to me. Uncaring, indeed.
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Thats not victimhood thats reality...something that you dont compute...you only compute whats swirling in your head...
No more responses from me....
 
Come on, Andalublue, you don't take Tigger seriously now, do you? Let him be. :)
 
Canell said:
Come on, Andalublue, you don't take Tigger seriously now, do you? Let him be. :)
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I certainly hope I didn't give the impression I was taking his nuttty ideas seriously. I was however, giving his contributions the respect due to anyone who posts opinions they seriously appear to believe in.
 
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