View Poll Results: What is America's greatest sin?

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  • The war for independence

    1 1.02%
  • Slavery

    32 32.65%
  • Indians / native Americans

    35 35.71%
  • Hiroshima, Nagasaki bombing

    3 3.06%
  • The war in Vietnam

    2 2.04%
  • The FED

    7 7.14%
  • The Cold war

    0 0%
  • The Civil war

    0 0%
  • Other

    15 15.31%
  • I can't tell

    3 3.06%
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Thread: America's greatest sin [W:264]

  1. #101
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    re: America's greatest sin [W:264]

    That's a tough question. If we mean greatest sin ever, I'd say slavery.

  2. #102
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    re: America's greatest sin [W:264]

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    During the formation of our nation, leading to its current borders, it was not a question of "native" rights so much as preventing OTHER foreigh powers from gaining control of the territories that we now hold and enjoy. The same conquering of indigenous peoples occured worldwide for centuries, yeilding the modern, and now fairly stable, global boundaries. If not the U.S. then Spain, England, Portugal or France would have "claimed" these territories. The native tribes of north America were doomed either way as they could not hold off the superior power of ANY of these "conquering" national forces, just as we saw in all other continents.
    Controlling territory is different than displacement of native peoples and in some cases genocide. They are 2 radically different things. One is geo political the other is the ethical treatment of other human beings.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    re: America's greatest sin [W:264]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Why doesn't it surprise me that you devalue ideals such as Nationalism, Exceptionalism, and Greed?
    Sorry, there are too many clichés in that response to compute. Of course I'd oppose nationalism, it's an irrational and divisive ideology that lacks any intellectual credibility. Exceptionalism is merely idiocy elaborated. And greed? I thought you were all in favour of traditional values and morals based upon Judaeo-Christian values. I think you'll find greed being fairly well excoriated in the books of both religions you seem to favour. As neither a Christian nor a Jew I view it more as a symptom of mass psychopathology.

    Believe it or not, there is more to life than sunshine and lollipops.
    That's 3 clichés in just 13 words. Is this a record?

    Not everyone gets a trophy in the real world. You have to break a couple eggs to make an omelette. Your ideal of peace and happiness is totally unrealistic on any signifiant level.
    Three sentences, three clichés, three non-sequiturs and not a single logical thought. That definitely is a record.
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  4. #104
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    re: America's greatest sin [W:264]

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Of course I'd oppose nationalism, it's an irrational and divisive ideology that lacks any intellectual credibility. Exceptionalism is merely idiocy elaborated. And greed? I thought you were all in favour of traditional values and morals based upon Judaeo-Christian values. I think you'll find greed being fairly well excoriated in the books of both religions you seem to favour. As neither a Christian nor a Jew I view it more as a symptom of mass psychopathology.
    Nationalism is simply the extension of the Us vs Them philosophy necessary to promote the cohesiveness and singularity necessary in a proper society. Exceptionalism is the continuous press for Perfection, which can almost never be achieved but which should always be the goal.

    I believe in Universal Morality which is a greater force than any religion and corrupted by all religions. I am not a follower of ANY particular organized religion.

  5. #105
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    re: America's greatest sin [W:264]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Nationalism is simply the extension of the Us vs Them philosophy necessary to promote the cohesiveness and singularity necessary in a proper society.
    Agree with the bit in bold, vehemently reject the bit in italics.
    Exceptionalism is the continuous press for Perfection, which can almost never be achieved but which should always be the goal.
    No, it isn't. It is the political reification of prejudice and discrimination.

    I believe in Universal Morality which is a greater force than any religion and corrupted by all religions.
    I don't think you do, because I get no sense that you believe that what's right for you must also be right for everyone else, which is one of, if not the most fundamental, basis of universal moral objectivism. Your comments on women belie your claim to believe in universal morality.
    Last edited by Andalublue; 07-31-12 at 01:40 PM.
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    re: America's greatest sin [W:264]

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Agree with the bit in bold, vehemently reject the bit in italics.
    Then what other means should be used to create a singular, proper societal and cultural norm in a nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    No, it isn't. It is the political reification of prejudice and discrimination.
    You say potato, I say po-ta-toe, let's call the whole thing off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I don't think you do, because I get no sense that you believe that what's right for you must also be right for everyone else, which is one of, if not the most fundamental, basis of universal moral objectivism. Your comments on women belie your claim to believe in universal morality.
    Universal as in, the overall standard applies to all individuals, whether they choose to accept it or not. It has nothing to do with indivual people it's a collective ideal.

  7. #107
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    re: America's greatest sin [W:264]

    This thread is ridiculous!

    "America's greatest sin" -- what a joke!

    None of those items on that list are a "sin". How naive can a person be?!

    Every one of those things is just an example of people being people, human nature exemplified, in true Darwinian dog-eat-dog survival of the fittest fashion -- nothing sinful about that whatsoever! It's simply the way we are.

    Now I know there are some wimpy-ass folks who like to imagine that our new lobes make us into some kind of god-like beings, where we have "dominion" over our basic animalistic survival instincts and that it's supposedly some kind of "good" thing to bend over and turn the other cheeks to let those who are a threat to us in some way and whom we could otherwise utilize to our survival's benefit instead ream us a new one, as if that's the "civilized" thing to do.

    But isn't it pretty darn obvious how ridiculous that sounds?!

    We are where we are today because we saw the threat and took the opportunity to dispose of it the best way available to us, turning it into an advantage for us in true Darwinian American fashion.

    I mean, just look at our socioeconomic system. It's the finest example of a hugely competitive win-lose dynamic on the planet, the best exemplified epitome of raw human nature today's highly developed intelligent mechanics of our brainy sophistication has to offer.

    And just because a few stick-in-the-mud PIGS aren't able to play the game well doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the game like these so-called "99-Percenters" keep whining about -- I mean, hell, next thing you know they'll be wanting to give the gold medal to the guy who comes in last in an Olympic event! Absolutely absurd!

    Competition to the survialist extreme is what America is all about, and if a few losers end up taking it in the short-hairs, man that's simply the way God intended it, and if you don't know that then you are simply behind in your Old Testament reading, where God helped the Israelites as they slew this enemy and that enemy "and God saw that it was good".

    I mean Jeez!

    This is all so nonsensical! So, what, was the sub-prime securities situation that fostered the September 2008 corporate credit crunch and massive spike in unemployment a sin too? Were those speculators "evil" people who sinned against their fellow Americans? Hell no! They simply turned what they knew was going to be a losing proposition into a huge win for themselves, nothing more. Sinful? Absolutely not! And just because they did it all in secret, hiding it well until the end, does that make them "bad"? Absolutely not -- that just made them really smart and super-fit! Hell, Darwin himself would be proud of what they did as exemplary fittest behavior, turning an apparent losing situation into a win-lose proposition; a win for them and a loss for the other guy.

    I mean, it's so utterly ridiculous to call any of this a sin when it's simply human nature evidenced for eons that next some will be calling investors and corporate execs sinful just because they implicitly conspired to outsource scores of millions of American jobs to foreign wage-slaves, when the rules of our very economic system itself demand that they do so or lose money! What would you want them to do, purposely lose the corporate competition so that everyone, even losers, get to keep on playing? Why heck, if they did that, they'd go out of business, and then all of their employees would be looking for work! They played the game perfectly, just as all those did in the OP "sin" list, just the way the game is defined. And that's a "sin"??? Ridiculous!

    Yes, to call that and any on the OP list a "sin" is absolutely absurd, just as absurd as it would be to change the rules of chess so that nobody loses -- who would want to play that game??? That would suck the motivation right out of it!

    And to all those who complain about nukes, if America had never used ours, no one would have known they existed, and then in secret someone could have developed a ton and started using them to control the world! Now everyone knows about them and everyone has or is getting them, thereby keeping a MAD peace in the world to keep us all surviving, the fittest way humanity knows how .. so none of this belly-aching about nukes or bio-weapons and the like, as that simply makes no sense whatsoever.

    Yes, all the whiners, all the "apologists" for human nature, all the losers in the age-old exhaulted games of human dog-eat-dog natural selective survival .. if they have such a damn problem with the normal course of human events, then obviously they would prefer not to be a part of humanity, and considering how over-populated with losers we are right now since the last normal-course-of-human-events recession, rather than keep on lifting them up and helping them to keep on living and breeding like rabbits, it's better that we just cut 'em loose and let 'em die .. and thereby decrease the surplus population.

    That'd be a whole lot better than to sacrifice our country and our people to being a part of the losers' global economy where we all descend to the level of the poorest, all being equally bad off, functioning collectively in dependency, until, for lack of anything else fun to do that we can afford, we breed ourselves into self-inflicted extinction.

    America's "sins"???

    My ass!
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  8. #108
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    re: America's greatest sin [W:264]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I have to ask a question to all of you who are including the treatment of the Native Americans in your list....

    What else is a conquering force supposed to do with a still potentially hostile foreign force that may attempt to counter-attack? They will not embrace the new culture and assimilate. They are not happy about the idea of moving to another location. What else were we supposed to do with them.

    P.S. - Answers to this question should be based in REALITY, not the happy sunshine, gumdrops, and rainbows, bull**** philosophy that everyone can "just get along".
    To be honest, I think the whole idea of taking their land and conquering them wasn't necessarily a good idea. But assuming that's impossible to avoid, I still think we could have treated them better.

    It goes against the founding ideas of our country, which are that we have rights that are endowed by our Creator. Did Native Americans have a different creator? Did any race have a different creator? Were they endowed with different rights?

    Basically, it was part of the old, racist, colonialist mindset. "The darker peoples of the Earth need the enlightened leadership of white guys."


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  9. #109
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    re: America's greatest sin [W:264]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ontologuy View Post
    This thread is ridiculous!

    "America's greatest sin" -- what a joke!

    None of those items on that list are a "sin". How naive can a person be?!

    [...]

    [...]

    [...]

    [...]

    [...]

    [...]

    [...]

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    [...]
    Then I take it we can put you down for "other"?
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  10. #110
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    re: America's greatest sin [W:264]

    So you must agree that the "sin" is giving into all this victimology, self-loathing and worshipping at the altar of "WE MUST REPENT! AND THEREFORE WE MUST SPEND OURSELVES INTO OBLIVION" crapola....

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