View Poll Results: Obama Tax Supporters=What is more Important to You

Voters
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  • Saving the tax cuts for yourself (and the rich)

    1 6.25%
  • Sticking it to the rich with a tax hike for everyone

    15 93.75%
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Thread: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

  1. #261
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    No.

    The only way to ensure that spending is cut is to pass a budget that spends less money. Anything else...such as your suggestion...can be ignored or changed at any time after such a law is passed.

    Of course, spending won't get cut because the Democrats won't pass such a budget...and here we are.
    MY way or the highway. Nice attitude you have.

    Your own plan seems to ignore that spending cuts also can be changed - but that does not stop you from insisting upon them over everything and to the exclusion of all other measures.

    You claim that Democrats would not vote for such a budget. When was one offered which did what I suggest? Never.

    I could just as easilly say that Republicans would never vote for that same budget. And I have no evidence of them taking that position.
    Last edited by haymarket; 07-27-12 at 03:24 PM.
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  2. #262
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    1) Keeping the Bush/Obama tax rates for the "middle class"


    2) sticking it to the rich with a tax hike
    I believe this is known as a false choice.

    How about there are some things that the private sector does best, some things the government does best, and others that work best with public/private collaboration. The government may not be perfect, but it provides a net good.

    Someone has to pay for everything that the government does. Someone has to pay for the infrastructure. Currently as a nation we're paying 14% of GDP in taxes, and that is totally unsustainable. We need to be paying closer to 20%.

    Over the last 30 years, virtually all of the economic growth has gone to the top 1%... a top 1% that pays a lower rate in taxes than those who make less.

    We need to raise revenue. What is so wrong about starting with the people who are booming before we start passing austerity measures on those who are struggling?

  3. #263
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    MY way or the highway. Nice attitude you have.

    Your own plan seems to ignore that spending cuts also can be changed - but that does not stop you from insisting upon them over everything and to the exclusion of all other measures.

    You claim that Democrats would not vote for such a budget. When was one offered which did what I suggest? Never.

    I could just as easilly say that Republicans would never vote for that same budget. And I have no evidence of them taking that position.
    If a budget is passed for the next fiscal year that reduces overall spending, then that's the budget. If any changes are made to it in the course of that fiscal year, we will have on record who changed the budget. This scenario is unacceptable to the Democrats because they won't take responsibility for their actions. They only want to blame Republicans.

    The House HAS passed a budget that reduces spending...what happened to it? That, of course, is a rhetorical question because we all KNOW what happened to it. Reid happened to it.

    Now...something similar to what you suggested has been passed at least twice that I know of...both times with the same results. The Democrats didn't follow through on their promise. Why, on earth, do you think they will follow through on their promise if something like what you suggest is passed? Do you have evidence of Republicans breaking a similar promise?
    TANSTAAFL

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  4. #264
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    I believe this is known as a false choice.

    How about there are some things that the private sector does best, some things the government does best, and others that work best with public/private collaboration. The government may not be perfect, but it provides a net good.

    Someone has to pay for everything that the government does. Someone has to pay for the infrastructure. Currently as a nation we're paying 14% of GDP in taxes, and that is totally unsustainable. We need to be paying closer to 20%.

    Over the last 30 years, virtually all of the economic growth has gone to the top 1%... a top 1% that pays a lower rate in taxes than those who make less.

    We need to raise revenue. What is so wrong about starting with the people who are booming before we start passing austerity measures on those who are struggling?
    Well...you make the same argument that iguanaman made...and you get the same response I gave him:

    "Also, since...as you say...spending has been at 20% of GDP and revenue has been at 15%...reducing spending (ie, reducing the size, scope and power of government) is preferable. That way, that percentage you speak of won't increase when the economy turns sour."

    I will add this: The reason the ratio between taxes and spending is unsustainable isn't because we are not taxing enough...it's because we are spending almost two trillion too much.
    TANSTAAFL

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  5. #265
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Oh, I'm sure you are correct on what the plan is...but you are wrong to connect the Republicans with any of it. In fact, it was certain Democrats who objected to the public option...and that objection is why we have Obamacare. Obama, Pelosi and Reid HAD to pass something and they made whatever deals were necessary with their own Party members to do it. The Republicans were shut out of the whole stinking thing, so don't try to spin it as being THEIR fault.
    First, the insurance mandate was created by conservatives:

    "An individual mandate to purchase healthcare was initially proposed by the politically conservative Heritage Foundation in 1989 as an alternative to single-payer health care. From its inception, the idea of an individual mandate was championed by Republican politicians as a free-market approach to health-care reform.[2][3] The individual mandate was felt to resonate with conservative principles of individual responsibility, and conservative groups recognized that the healthcare market was unique."

    Health insurance mandate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Secondly, a majority of the Senate Democrats supported the public option:

    "# Senator State Comment
    1 Akaka HI Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    2 Baucus MT Said reason for voting against on Senate Finance was the need for 60 votes
    3 Bennet CO Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    4 Bingaman NM Voted for Schumer’s “level playing field” public option on Senate Finance
    5 Boxer CA Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    6 Brown OH Voted for HELP Committee public option
    7 Burris IL Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    8 Byrd “In his honor and as a tribute to his commitment to his ideals, let us stop the shouting and name calling and have a civilized debate on health care reform which I hope, when legislation has been signed into law, will bear his name for his commitment to insuring the health of every American.”
    9 Cantwell WA Voted for Schumer level playing field on Senate Finance
    10 Cardin MD Voted for Kennedy resolution demanding public option in May
    11 Carper DE Voted for Schumer’s “level playing field” public option on Senate Finance
    12 Casey PA Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    13 Dodd CT Voted for HELP Committee public option
    14 Dorgan ND I do believe that some sort of public option needs to be part of the proposal, along with a focus on bringing down health care costs and prevention.
    15 Durbin IL Voted for Kennedy resolution demanding public option in May
    16 Feingold WI Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    17 Feinstein CA Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    18 Franken MN Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    19 Gillibrand NY Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    20 Hagan NC Voted for HELP Committee public option
    21 Harkin IA Voted for HELP Committee public option
    22 Inouye HI Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    23 Johnson SD I asked, “What about the bill are you opposed to?” He replied, “That it doesn’t have a robust public option”.a
    24 Kaufman DE Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    25 Kerry MA Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    26 Klobuchar MN “I would prefer a public option that would be a competitive option that would allow people to buy into a Federal Employee Health Benefits Program, which is a series of private plans.”
    27 Kohl WI Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    28 Lautenberg NJ Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    29 Leahy VT Voted for Kennedy resolution demanding public option in May
    30 Levin MI Voted for Kennedy resolution demanding public option in May
    31 McCaskill MO Voted for Schumer’s level playing field on Senate Finance
    32 Menendez NJ Voted for Schumer level playing field on Senate Finance
    33 Merkley OR Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    34 Mikulski MD Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    35 Murray WA Voted for HELP Committee public option
    36 Nelson (Bill) FL Voted for Schumer’s “level playing field” public option on Senate Finance
    37 Reed RI Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    38 Reid NV “I’ve told people, whoever will listen, that I am in favor of the public option.”
    39 Rockefeller WV Voted for Schumer Level Playing Field public option on Senate Finance Committee
    40 Sanders VT Voted for HELP Committee public option
    41 Schumer NY Sponsor of Schumer Amendment
    42 Shaheen NH Voted for Kennedy resolution demanding public option in May
    43 Specter PA Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    44 Stabenow MI Voted for Schumer’s level playing field on Senate Finance
    45 Tester MT “We need competition, and if we get a public option that will help Montana. I will support it.”
    46 Udall CO “I support the President’s plan to include the public option as a tool help reform our broken health care system. But above all, any reform must be done in a deficit-neutral way and must provide choice, stability and security for those who have insurance.”
    47 Udall NM Voted for Kennedy resolution demanding public option in May
    48 Warner VA “It’s not a make or break thing–he wants to see a health reform bill that contains costs, and if it includes a public option…he would vote for it.”
    49 Webb VA Told the Huffington Post he is open to a public health care option.
    50 Whitehouse RI Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option
    51 Wyden OR Signed Oct 8 letter demanding public option"
    https://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/01/29-11
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  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Over the last 30 years, virtually all of the economic growth has gone to the top 1%... a top 1% that pays a lower rate in taxes than those who make less.
    These are careless statements. All the growth "has gone to" the top 1%? That does not even make sense. Which tax rate(s) are you referring to that the top 1% pays a lower one than his poorer neighbor? I don't know of a single one.

    We need to raise revenue. What is so wrong about starting with the people who are booming before we start passing austerity measures on those who are struggling?
    It's not a priority to focus on income when the outlays are out of control. It's like giving someone a blood transfusion before addressing their severed artery.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 07-27-12 at 04:05 PM.

  7. #267
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    These are careless statements. All the growth "has gone to" the top 1%? That does not even make sense. Which tax rate(s) are you referring to that the top 1% pays a lower one than his poorer neighbor? I don't know of a single one.



    It's not a priority to focus on income when the outlays are out of control. It's like giving someone a blood transfusion before addressing their severed artery.
    Virtually all the economic growth has gone to the top 1%. It's a pretty small statement. I don't see the need to only quote "has gone to".

    You're right that it doesn't make a lot of sense, but unfortunately it's true.
    http://aneconomicsense.files.wordpre...-1980-2008.png

    As for the top earners paying less in taxes than the upper middle class, that's fairly well established.
    Effective Income Tax Rates - Graphic - NYTimes.com
    The top 1% pays on average slightly less than the top 10% in Federal income tax. This becomes more pronounced as you go up the income ladder. The top 400 wage earners payed an effective tax rate of 16%, about the same as the top 25%.

    But... remember, this is just INCOME tax. We may never talk about it, but payroll tax is another 14.2% (including both employer and employee) contributions that everyone pays on the first 108k. That's by far the biggest tax burden on the bottom 75%.

    If you're making 150k-250k of taxable income (ie.. up to about 350k gross) then you have a right to be ticked off at the tax code. You're paying the highest rates. Above that, the richer you are, the lower the percentage you pay.

  8. #268
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    First, the insurance mandate was created by conservatives:



    Secondly, a majority of the Senate Democrats supported the public option:
    So what? The Republicans never acted on it...the Democrats did, even though the people told them not to.

    Making a statement or signing a letter doesn't equal a vote.

    Furthermore, I noticed you left this off:

    "So, should we conclude that the 51 Democrats in the Senate who said they support a public option when 60 votes were needed were all full of ****, now that the bar is down to 50 and they’re still not moving?"
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  9. #269
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    The current debt is just shy of $16 trillion dollars.
    Each day we add some $3 billion 900 million dollars to that total.

    U.S. National Debt Clock

    The current years federal budget is $3.7 trillion dollars.

    Just how much would each component of your 'plan' (and I use that term very very loosely) in paying that deficit and ending the annual deficit and the total debt?

    Tell us with each of your 'proposals' how much we would be saving.

    look at your proposals

    Limit the government to its constitutional functions



    The Supreme Court does this. The government can have no unconstitutional functions. Since you are cutting nothing - you are sving nothing. Turtle does not get to decide what is constitutional and what is unconstitutional. That has already been done.



    Okay. And how much is that going to save?



    So you want to have a fire sale an get rid of Yosemite,Yellowstone and the rest. And how much will that raise and where is the public support for such a radical and extremely short term idea?

    Lets look at the right wing wet dream on this issue since both Ryan and Santorum have eagerly lapped it up

    GOP Budget Calls For Fire Sale Of Public Lands While Preserving $40 Billion In Tax Breaks To Big Oil | ThinkProgress




    And how much would that save from the federal budget?



    And how much would that save us?

    And what then is the total of your savings?

    end the war on drugs-that will eliminate 75% of the federal law enforcement costs
    wo what you are saying is that your dem masters' plans to screw the rich amount to a cup full of spit in an ocean of red ink

    this is the chickens coming home to roost on FDR's idiocy called the new deal and its massive expansion of the government

  10. #270
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Your kidding me...right?

    The people don't decide anything. The politicians do.

    If the people decided anything, we wouldn't be saddled with that crappy Obamacare. The people didn't want it. Heck, a bunch of politicians...on both sides...didn't want it. That didn't stop us from getting it, though.

    LOL!!!

    "The people will decide..."
    Of love Catawba's madame DeFarge channeling. THE CITIZENS WILL DECIDE YOUR FATE!!

    In reality

    the minions are pawns of their rich elite masters who tell them how to think

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