View Poll Results: Obama Tax Supporters=What is more Important to You

Voters
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  • Saving the tax cuts for yourself (and the rich)

    1 6.25%
  • Sticking it to the rich with a tax hike for everyone

    15 93.75%
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Thread: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

  1. #221
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Read that again.
    Yes, reducing the deficit as we did in the 1990s, (the only time we have significantly reduced the deficit in the last 30 years) by both cutting spending, mainly on the military, and increasing the tax rates for the wealthy.



    What increased our debt was our government's decision to bail it out. There was still a choice, even with GLB.
    Nope, because we foolishly removed the firewall between investment banks and commercial banks, allowing the investment banks to fail would have brought down the whole world economy. The question is will we learn from our mistakes.



    Everything the banks and their customers did wrong, was flung back onto us. It was the single greatest discrete transfer of wealth from the public to the private banking sector in the history of the world.
    Exactly why we need to reestablish the firewall between investment banks and commercial banks. As referenced above, even "Sanford Weill , the 'one-time poster boy' for creating bank supermarkets (as noted by former FDIC Chairperson Sheila Bair), was conveying during his interview. He essentially called for the return of the Glass-Steagall Act of 1932, which imposed banking reforms that split banks from other financial institutions such as insurance companies. The conversation revolved around the repeal of the Act, which prohibited commercial banks from acting like investment banks, by taking on much greater risk. Although there are those who will dispute it, there is little doubt that this drastic climate change in contributed to the financial meltdowns of recent years."
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #222
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Yes, reducing the deficit as we did in the 1990s...
    You are so all over the map. You just essentially said "righties want to reduce government, thank god they didn't get elected, because the rest of us want to reduce deficits." WTF?

    (the only time we have significantly reduced the deficit in the last 30 years) by both cutting spending, mainly on the military, and increasing the tax rates for the wealthy.
    You're ignoring a much greater factor, which was the internet bubble.

    Nope, because we foolishly removed the firewall between investment banks and commercial banks, allowing the investment banks to fail would have brought down the whole world economy.
    How do you know? Because the people who stood to profit from the bailout told you so?

    The rich have you by the balls, Catawba. The next time some **** hits the fan, they will warn you that the whole house of cards is about to cave in again and that they need more of your money.

    The world wouldn't have ended if we'd let the vacuous financial schemes collapse. It would have sucked for a while, but that would have been corrective of all the BS going on in our financial system. What would have happened is that a lot of rich people would have lost a greater share of their wealth than the rest of us would (because relatively speaking we're already "poor"). This seems like something you'd have wanted. Why are you defending the bailouts when they clearly were a bailout of the rich?
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 07-27-12 at 02:43 AM.

  3. #223
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    You are so all over the map. You just essentially said "righties want to reduce government, thank god they didn't get elected, because the rest of us want to reduce deficits." WTF?
    Trying to keep up with you is all. No, what I said was "Yes, reducing the deficit as we did in the 1990s, (the only time we have significantly reduced the deficit in the last 30 years) by both cutting spending, mainly on the military, and increasing the tax rates for the wealthy." The intent was to show it is possible to reduce the deficit without attacking our nations social contract with our seniors.


    You're ignoring a much greater factor, which was the internet bubble.
    Correlation does not prove causation. It was also a time of higher tax rates on the wealthy, and just like in the 50's thru the 70's the higher tax rates for the wealthy did not hinder our economy.


    How do you know?
    Reasoning.


    The rich have you by the balls, Catawba. The next time some **** hits the fan, they will warn you that the whole house of cards is about to cave in again and that they need more of your money.
    Nope, we just need to get more progressive Democrats elected to join the 77 Co-sponsors of HR 1489 to vote in the reinstatement of the Glass-Steagall Act.

    The world wouldn't have ended if we'd let the vacuous financial schemes collapse. It would have sucked for a while, but that would have been corrective of all the BS going on in our financial system. What would have happened is that a lot of rich people would have lost a greater share of their wealth than the rest of us would (because relatively speaking we're already "poor"). This seems like something you'd have wanted. Why are you defending the bailouts when they clearly were a bailout of the rich?
    It would have meant worldwide economic collapse, making the Great Depression look like a picnic. Once we have again separated investment banks from commercial banks as they were for 50 years following the Great Depression, then we can let the investment banks fail without dragging everyone else down with them.
    Last edited by Catawba; 07-27-12 at 03:03 AM.
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  4. #224
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Trying to keep up with you is all. No, what I said was "Yes, reducing the deficit as we did in the 1990s, (the only time we have significantly reduced the deficit in the last 30 years) by both cutting spending, mainly on the military, and increasing the tax rates for the wealthy." The intent was to show it is possible to reduce the deficit without attacking our nations social contract with our seniors.
    If Bush hadn't done his tax cut thing, he might have found a way to harness the housing bubble and reduce the deficit even further/more consistently, if not even had a few years of true surplus even despite the dot-com bust. But you know what? The point isn't that Bush shouldn't have cut taxes. The point is that you can't simply credit tax policies for deficit reduction when a credit bubble was driving the economic boom (and hence inflating tax revenues) in the first place.

    Correlation does not prove causation.
    Yeah!!! Now you're getting it!!!!! Post hoc ergo propter hoc!!!

    It was also a time of higher tax rates on the wealthy, and just like in the 50's thru the 70's the higher tax rates for the wealthy did not hinder our economy.
    Times were undeniably different then. The ability to do business elsewhere (sheltered from our tax rates) was much more restricted back then than it is now (with the advent of all our internet and communications technology).

  5. #225
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That's what will be required to address our problems. Or, you can just keep hoping for magic to make it all better.
    Your proposals won't address our problems...they will make our problems worse.

    I say no thanks to your proposals.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  6. #226
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    If Bush hadn't done his tax cut thing, he might have found a way to harness the housing bubble and reduce the deficit even further/more consistently, if not even had a few years of true surplus even despite the dot-com bust. But you know what? The point isn't that Bush shouldn't have cut taxes. The point is that you can't simply credit tax policies for deficit reduction when a credit bubble was driving the economic boom (and hence inflating tax revenues) in the first place.
    Sorry the financial experts, including his own economists, say the revenues would have been bigger without the Bush tax cuts, which translates into smaller deficits.



    Times were undeniably different then. The ability to do business elsewhere (sheltered from our tax rates) was much more restricted back then than it is now (with the advent of all our internet and communications technology).
    That's what conservatives have said each of the few times Democrats have eliminated tax cuts for the wealthy, and it has never ever been the bad thing they try to make it out to be. In fact in every case the economy has improved after the elimination of tax cuts for the wealthy.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #227
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Where did I say that is all that should be done? Try addressing what I agrue. There are problems on both sides. But we must understand both cuttig spending and raising taxes need to be done.
    Cutting spending needs to be done...for sure. Raising taxes...not necessarily. But, the fact is, we need to cut spending first. Any talk of doing both right now only means that the taxes will be raised and spending won't be cut...leaving us in worse shape than we are in right now.
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

  8. #228
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Your proposals won't address our problems...they will make our problems worse.

    I say no thanks to your proposals.
    The choice is not yours alone. The people will decide, as it should be.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #229
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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Sorry the financial experts, including his own economists, say the revenues would have been bigger without the Bush tax cuts, which translates into smaller deficits.





    That's what conservatives have said each of the few times Democrats have eliminated tax cuts for the wealthy, and it has never ever been the bad thing they try to make it out to be. In fact in every case the economy has improved after the elimination of tax cuts for the wealthy.
    You don't really believe your statement that I've highlighted, do you? More revenue has ALWAYS resulted in more spending...not smaller deficits.

    And then...in your second statement...you switch from some effect on the deficit to an effect on the economy. Make up your mind what you are talking about instead of throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall, eh?
    TANSTAAFL

    “An armed society is a polite society.”
    ― Robert A. Heinlein, Beyond This Horizon

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    Re: Obama Tax supporters=what is more important to you

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Cutting spending needs to be done...for sure. Raising taxes...not necessarily. But, the fact is, we need to cut spending first. Any talk of doing both right now only means that the taxes will be raised and spending won't be cut...leaving us in worse shape than we are in right now.
    Did you miss the 1990s when we reduced the deficit by both cutting spending and eliminating some of the tax cuts for the wealthy?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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