View Poll Results: In general, do you agee with the quote in the context of gun regulations/bans?

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  • Yes

    23 82.14%
  • No

    4 14.29%
  • Other

    1 3.57%
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Thread: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

  1. #71
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    The notion of gun owners being some kind of a check on the government is silly. We spend more on our military than the rest of the world combined. A bunch of dudes with shotguns isn't even close to being a check on say, the Iraqi army from before the Iraq war, and we saw how well they did against the US military... If you really want gun owners to be a check on the US military, you should be fighting to cut military funding down to 5% of what it is first... As it stands, if there were a revolution (which would be pretty ridiculous in a democracy... what, you can't just wait a year or two for the next election?) what would decide it was which side the military was on, not some dudes with shotguns.

    Now, back in the founder's time, an armed populace really was a check on the government. Civilians had comparable arms to the military and greater numbers. Not so today, nor could it be without the country being torn apart by Timothy McVeighs equipped with stealth bombers.
    And yet somehow you forget that the iraqi insurgency was just that and was a serious thorn in the side of the US military even though they had fewer guns, much smaller numbers, and no moral ambiguity about shooting your own countrymen.

  2. #72
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Do all people have a right to free speech? Even the ones who suck at producing a cogent defense of it? Yes.
    No... Of course not. For example, in North Korea there is no right to freedom of speech.
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  3. #73
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Another straw man from the NRA fanboys.

    No body wants you to give up you liberty. Own your guns. Just fill out some paper work when you buy them and when you sell them.
    First, no one is talking about ONLY removing the ability to own guns. This thread was about regulation and bans.

    Second, Technically, a restriction on liberty could be viewed as "giving up" some liberty.

    For example, imagine if you had to buy a government permit to start a political blog? Would that be "giving up" some liberty regarding the 1st amendment?

    Now...you could suggest that it's a limitation in liberty in exchange for security that you're fine with. But there's a definite case to be made that you're giving up at least a little security if you are allowing the government to enact any restriction on how you exercise a constitutional right when it's not infringing upon the rights of others.

  4. #74
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well, we've seen how effective insurgency is in Iraq. It's been a headache for sure. But, then again, the insurgents there are 10 times better armed than the American people. They have all kinds of serious military hardware. And, they're 10 times more experienced than the American people. And still, just a headache for the US military really.
    ten times better armed

    you are talking out your six again. and just see what happens if we were invaded

    lots of military hardware in NG arsenals would be Liberated

    and lots of our civilians are very experienced. take my nephew-he's had 42 months of combat over there in the Rangers and then the special forces. he will be a civilian within a few years.

    and there are thousands like him-teh best trained combat infantry in the world

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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I don't think we should ban guns or anything, but calling it a liberty issue is quite a stretch IMO. The real, core, liberties are all about protecting the free flow and expression of ideas. Free speech is precisely that, but the right of association, due process, freedom of religion, equal protection, etc, are all there to enable the development, free exchange, and protection of ideas. The right to bear arms used to be about that too back in the day. It was a check on government. But today it has lost that element completely. Now it just seems to be about people think guys are cool... So, I don't think we should ban them or something, but I think it's pretty grandiose to still be canonizing the right to bear arms along with the more serious rights.
    So we have someone in the category of "Some Constitutional rights are important and some are less important to the point of not even being part of our 'liberty'"

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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Ill answer the question:
    Yes i do. However i do believe that there should remain gun regulations...


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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Well, we've seen how effective insurgency is in Iraq. It's been a headache for sure. But, then again, the insurgents there are 10 times better armed than the American people. They have all kinds of serious military hardware. And, they're 10 times more experienced than the American people. And still, just a headache for the US military really.
    The TOTAL iraqi population is 32 million... texas alone would be more of a problem than iraq was... all I can do is just shake my head at this statement... you have no idea what asymetrical warfare is... And apparently you forget that WE invented it.

  8. #78
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    As a career military officer I disagree with you. Could the populace go toe to toe with the military and come out victorious? No. But do you think for one second that is how it would happen? Did you pay attention to Vietnam, Iraq or Afganistan? Guerilla warfare is effective against a stronger force. It wouldn't even be necessary to defeat the military. One need only make it not worth their trouble. I believe an armed populace makes it less likely that the need for such a conflict would ever even happen.

    And no, I don't think such a thing is around the corner. But we don't know what the future has in store, even if it isn't in our lifetime.
    Not worth their trouble implies an occupying force. I think you're talking about a revolutionary force trying to take the country by force because they were unable to win at the polls. That isn't something the elected government would throw their hands up in the air and walk away from, it is something they would crush to a fine powder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schutzengel View Post
    And yet somehow you forget that the iraqi insurgency was just that and was a serious thorn in the side of the US military even though they had fewer guns, much smaller numbers, and no moral ambiguity about shooting your own countrymen.
    Not sure what you mean exactly. The insurgency in Iraq is better equipped than the American population by far, much, much, more experienced at insurgency, AND has fewer moral qualms than an American resistance probably would. And still, just an annoyance to the US military...

    Again, I think that if you really want a chance against the US military, even just as insurgents, the way to do it would have to start with slashing the military budget.
    Total tax rates- People living in poverty: 16.2%. The median American: 27%. Working people who make over $140k/year: 31%. The top 1%: 30%. Super rich investors: around 15%. Help the democrats retake the house.

  9. #79
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    ten times better armed

    you are talking out your six again. and just see what happens if we were invaded

    lots of military hardware in NG arsenals would be Liberated

    and lots of our civilians are very experienced. take my nephew-he's had 42 months of combat over there in the Rangers and then the special forces. he will be a civilian within a few years.

    and there are thousands like him-teh best trained combat infantry in the world
    "Liberated" Honestly I had to laugh at this because it is so true... How easily they forget that more than 50% of the US military is the national guard... that means a lot of hardware that would have a hard time making it out of any locality... I can think of no fewer than 3 national guard armories within 15 miles of my home...

  10. #80
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    tens of thousands of guns bought at gunshows have been used in crimes.
    Not what he was saying.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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