View Poll Results: In general, do you agee with the quote in the context of gun regulations/bans?

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  • Yes

    23 82.14%
  • No

    4 14.29%
  • Other

    1 3.57%
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Thread: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

  1. #21
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    My stance on gun control is the same on domestic safety: liberty may be sacrificed for security, but I require a good cost benefit ratio. In both cases, you often end up with large amounts of laws that intrude upon citizens and yet are completely ineffective in keeping the safe. Significant portion of gun control laws are created by people utterly ignorant about the functional abilities of firearms and end up completely useless. Many weapons are banned based on entirely meaningless qualities like bayonet mounts and flash hiders.

    Gun control should be about an informed and rational analysis of firearms and their distribution to minimize gun violence and maximize personal freedoms. Instead it is dominate by ideologues who simply push their emotional reactions rather than carefully considering the consequences of their policies on the American people.
    I think yes and no. Certainly we are in a realm where we are not advocating anarchy. There is some necessity for government and government force in order to ensure the rights and liberties of the individual. So on an absolute scale, no one is saying "no compromise". However, I think that once you establish what government is for, anything above that must be treated with extreme caution. Certainly there could be substantial aggregate safety gain through suspension and/or erosion of the 4th or the 1st or any of our rights. On that level you can start to argue away any of our rights on safety concerns. But it's not so much a cost analysis as it is a balance.

    The base is that free is not, never has been, and never will be safe. There is inherent dangers associated with freedom. You use government on some level reactively in order to for the most part keep it cleaned up. But we'll never make it zero, particularly in a free state. So instead of saying something of the sort of "restricting guns makes us safer", we have to consider the erosion of our rights. Perhaps making guns illegal could make us "safer" by some metric, but is it worth giving up our freedom over? Once you set a precedent for government action, it's going to run with it for as long as it can possibly get away with. Once you say 1 right for safety, government is going to be looking at all rights. Cost analysis is fine on the local scale, but everything must be related back to the global scale as well. We have to understand the nature of government and the road it will take when we consider expanding its power. If we do so haphazardly, the consequences are going to be extreme and beyond that which was intended. Getting it back ain't gonna be so easy either.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #22
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Getting it back ain't gonna be so easy either.
    You dont ever get anything back from the government that you do not take back with force, either real or implied.

  3. #23
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    I actually believes gun control decreases both my liberty and my security

    the liberty is obvious

    the security is too as we see with Chicago and DC

    gun control general only affects law abiding people and means criminals can victimize the innocents much easier

  4. #24
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    I have a hard time dealing with those that fail to realize laws only affect the law abidding...

    Gun Control laws on their face cannot have any effect on the crime rates, since those that commit crimes, will not fail to commit a crime, to commit a crime.

  5. #25
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
    - Benjamin Franklin

    This is a quote that oft showed up during PATRIOT Act discussions. However, given the recent shootings and the rise of some calling for further gun regulation, I would pose the question in relation to gun control. The right to bear arms, being inherent within the Constitution, seems as if it would qualify as an "essential liberty". Is utilizing the quote or principle behind the quote of Benjamin Franklin fair and useful when talking about the issue of gun regulatoin, control, or bans? Is there a belief that there are some Constitutional Rights, like the 4th amendment, that are "more important" than others, like the 2nd, in terms of placing regulation that hinders the individuals liberty? How does this quote relate to those arguments?
    I wouldn't make any new laws for this reason. I especially wouldn't make any while the emotions are high.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  6. #26
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    When was the last mass shooting at a gun show? EVERY mass shooting you are talking about has happened in an area where weapons are restricted and/ or limited.

  7. #27
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Schutzengel View Post
    When was the last mass shooting at a gun show? EVERY mass shooting you are talking about has happened in an area where weapons are restricted and/ or limited.
    So now we need a shooting at a gun show to questin anything? I'm not for any new laws, but I don't buy that.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #28
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Schutzengel View Post
    When was the last mass shooting at a gun show? EVERY mass shooting you are talking about has happened in an area where weapons are restricted and/ or limited.
    the garment soiling hysterics tell us it is the presence of availability of guns that increases gun deaths

    Yet, having attended several GRAND AMERICAN trapshoots where there are over ten thousand guns for sale=most not under lock and key, with SIX THOUSAND PEOPLE walking around with 12g shotguns and almost always at least 100 rounds of ammunition NO ONE has ever been shot there-even though there are hundreds of thousands of dollars in prize money

  9. #29
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    So now we need a shooting at a gun show to questin anything? I'm not for any new laws, but I don't buy that.
    tens of thousands of guns bought at gunshows have been used in crimes.

  10. #30
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    tens of thousands of guns bought at gunshows have been used in crimes.
    not really. gun shows tend to be a very low source of such guns. I can tell you why-its something that people who whine about gun shows never understand

    GUN SHOWS CRAWL WITH COPS
    from ATF guys trying to talk some dealer into selling a gun w/o paperwork by offering the dealer 200 dollars more for a gun to cops actually selling guns as dealers, the place is like an FOP bachelor party.

    at the last gun show I went to, I spotted three DEA agents I know (buying guns for themselves-not on the clock) two retired FBI special agents who know have county LEO positions, 5 cincinnati PD retired cops, four Loveland Ohio Cops, one retired ATF resident agent (who now does background checks for the feds as well as serves as a range officer for one of the better gun clubs in the cincinnati area) etc.

    now if you have a record and you were a mope in greater cincinnati, you run a rather large risk of some cop knowing your history

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