View Poll Results: In general, do you agee with the quote in the context of gun regulations/bans?

Voters
28. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    23 82.14%
  • No

    4 14.29%
  • Other

    1 3.57%
Page 2 of 13 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 128

Thread: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

  1. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    The greatest city on Earth
    Last Seen
    08-04-12 @ 04:27 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    31,089

    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    its a stupid quote, which sees the world through a very bi-polar outlook.

    The world & this issue has many shades of grey, and everyone but the extremists can see that.

  2. #12
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,416

    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    There is no Constitutional right recognized by the Supreme Court to have any weapon you want to have. This discussion IS NOT about depriving anyone of their Second Amendments rights. It is about attempting to find out how the American people want to define what those rights are in actual practice.

    To portray this as anything else is to engage in hyperbolic over the top intellectual fraud.
    It's generally understood that the 2nd Amendment applies to shoulder fired weapons and hand guns. No one is make the silly suggestion that people whould be able to own rocket launchers, nukes, or long range artillery--although it is legal to own certain types of artillery.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #13
    Sage
    jamesrage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    A place where common sense exists
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 09:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    31,067

    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
    - Benjamin Franklin

    This is a quote that oft showed up during PATRIOT Act discussions. However, given the recent shootings and the rise of some calling for further gun regulation, I would pose the question in relation to gun control. The right to bear arms, being inherent within the Constitution, seems as if it would qualify as an "essential liberty". Is utilizing the quote or principle behind the quote of Benjamin Franklin fair and useful when talking about the issue of gun regulatoin, control, or bans? Is there a belief that there are some Constitutional Rights, like the 4th amendment, that are "more important" than others, like the 2nd, in terms of placing regulation that hinders the individuals liberty? How does this quote relate to those arguments?
    I voted wrong.

    I will post this from another thread.

    There is at least 270 million firearms in the hands of US citizens in this country. Out of those 270 million privately owned firearms only several have been involved in some pathetic loser shooting up a place.If this site is accurate then only 12,252 murders caused are by someone using firearm each year.Assuming that each murder represents a single firearm then that means only 0.004537777777777778% of the 270 million firearms are use for murder each year. So why is it logical or reasonable to implement more infringements on the 2nd amendment when 99.99546222222222% of firearms are not used in murder?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  4. #14
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,971

    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    A couple thoughts from peoples posts....

    TPD, I agree completely with your view that people will just post it and expect it to stand alone as some universal counter. I'll also note that part of the problem with that is so often people put forward a paraphased version...often leaving out "essential" in terms of liberty along with "little" and "temporary" with regards to freedom.

    Dak...this is actually a fair point in terms of what it covers. You could say that "arms" is very subjective as to what it may mean and as such it's fair to limit certain aspects. However, the same argument could be used in terms of the subjective term of "unreasonable". This is why I specifically narrowly confined it to firearms in this particular hypothetical.

    Thunder...I actually disagree iwth the notion of hte bi-polar outlook of the quote itself. I think that term fits better with those who often paraphrase it. Ben's quote does not negate the notion that liberty CAN, and perhaps even SHOULD, be given up for security at times...however so often those that utilize it do seem to present a version of the quote that would lead one to follow it. Ben's quote actually seems to be rooted in a world with shades of grey as a means of judging that greyness and which, in general, way is the wise one to follow in his opinion depending on the factors involved.

  5. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    The greatest city on Earth
    Last Seen
    08-04-12 @ 04:27 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    31,089

    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    ..Thunder...I actually disagree iwth the notion of hte bi-polar outlook of the quote itself. I think that term fits better with those who often paraphrase it. Ben's quote does not negate the notion that liberty CAN, and perhaps even SHOULD, be given up for security at times...however so often those that utilize it do seem to present a version of the quote that would lead one to follow it. Ben's quote actually seems to be rooted in a world with shades of grey as a means of judging that greyness and which, in general, way is the wise one to follow in his opinion depending on the factors involved.
    interesting. I shall look into this.

  6. #16
    Politically Correct

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:33 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    2,850
    Blog Entries
    8

    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    I read on a questionable website the other day that in the 12 years before the Australian ban on certain types of assault weapons, there were 13 mass shootings, and in the 12 years since, there have been zero.

    Anybody know if that is true and, if so, want to weigh in?

    To me, the "right" of individuals to own a weapon capable of shooting 100 rounds in a matter of minutes is not worth the lives of those killed in mass shootings in the United States over the past decade.
    Last edited by Cameron; 07-23-12 at 06:36 PM.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

  7. #17
    Count Smackula
    rathi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    10-31-15 @ 10:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    7,890

    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    My stance on gun control is the same on domestic safety: liberty may be sacrificed for security, but I require a good cost benefit ratio. In both cases, you often end up with large amounts of laws that intrude upon citizens and yet are completely ineffective in keeping the safe. Significant portion of gun control laws are created by people utterly ignorant about the functional abilities of firearms and end up completely useless. Many weapons are banned based on entirely meaningless qualities like bayonet mounts and flash hiders.

    Gun control should be about an informed and rational analysis of firearms and their distribution to minimize gun violence and maximize personal freedoms. Instead it is dominate by ideologues who simply push their emotional reactions rather than carefully considering the consequences of their policies on the American people.

  8. #18
    Sage
    lizzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    between two worlds
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,581

    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    "Is there a belief that there are some Constitutional Rights, like the 4th amendment, that are "more important" than others, like the 2nd, in terms of placing regulation that hinders the individuals liberty? How does this quote relate to those arguments?
    Yes, it is more important (imo) than others (with the exception of the 1st, which I give equal weight), because it's our insurance policy to use as a last resort.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  9. #19
    Educator Schutzengel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Last Seen
    04-20-13 @ 11:33 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    719

    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    You guys DO realize that the second amendment is about protecting the citizenry FROM the government right?

    The framers had just finished a war in which the military that was there to protect them was used to enforce the rule of a tryanical king. Just look at the way it was written...

    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. -2nd Amendment

    for those who dont get this let me explain... The framers basically said... OK well we dont see anyway around not having a standing army to protect our country from the outside, so then we have to arm the people to keep the government from using the military against the people the way it just was...

    It is a NEVER AGAIN clause, and it was second ONLY to the right to speak your mind against the government, and be free to worship as you wished... ALL of the first 10 were about protecting the people from the government, not the other way around.

  10. #20
    Educator Schutzengel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Last Seen
    04-20-13 @ 11:33 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    719

    Re: Gun Control: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    My stance on gun control is the same on domestic safety: liberty may be sacrificed for security, but I require a good cost benefit ratio. In both cases, you often end up with large amounts of laws that intrude upon citizens and yet are completely ineffective in keeping the safe. Significant portion of gun control laws are created by people utterly ignorant about the functional abilities of firearms and end up completely useless. Many weapons are banned based on entirely meaningless qualities like bayonet mounts and flash hiders.

    Gun control should be about an informed and rational analysis of firearms and their distribution to minimize gun violence and maximize personal freedoms. Instead it is dominate by ideologues who simply push their emotional reactions rather than carefully considering the consequences of their policies on the American people.
    If you want to minimize gun violence, then you REQUIRE everyone to carry a gun. gun violence is highest where gun control is highest, at least in the US... vbiolent crimes went down markedly when florida passed thier concealed carry laws, and very strict gun controls havent prevented the hundreds of gun crimes in chicago this year...

    Washington DC which is practically a gun free zone was the murder capital of the US for many years, even with amazingly strict control laws.

Page 2 of 13 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •