View Poll Results: What is te top reason for the current US economic criss?

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  • Tax rates on job creators are too high.

    2 3.13%
  • Technology has eliminated many jobs

    1 1.56%
  • Our workforce is not qualified enough to demand high paying jobs in science and technology

    0 0%
  • Competition with cheap overseas labor

    22 34.38%
  • Healthcare reform

    0 0%
  • Too much regulation on business

    10 15.63%
  • Too little regulation on business

    19 29.69%
  • Barack Obama

    10 15.63%
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Thread: What is the top reason for the current US economic problem?

  1. #121
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    Re: What is the top reason for the current US economic problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Yeah, about the time the government decided that hospitals couldn't "deny" care if someone were uninsured. Coincidence? I doubt it. It's also around the time all the equal care for everyone BS started, as if that could actually be achieved except at the lowest possible standard.
    I lived during those times - I don't want to go back.

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    And before you start the whole UHC diatribe, why don't you go look up the number of hospitals per capita, doctors per capita, newer technologies and their availability under UHC, waiting times to receive emergncy and non-emergency care and waiting times for different surgeries and if they are even available in UHC countries and the availability of newer more effective drugs under a UHC system. Oh, and check out the number of deaths following surgery from infection and compare those to the US vs UHC countries. I would provide you some of the data myself, except you would just complain about sources and say I was lying or using false data, so show us what you can find.
    The fact that doctors flock to the US should be no surprise. If I could earn triple my existing salary for doing the same job I'd move to another country, too.


    As for the rest - why don't you look up mortality rates and life expectancy in various countries including the US? Go see where we fit into those categories. I'll give you a hint: Even with our outrageous health care costs we are far from being #1 in either category.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 07-29-12 at 02:38 AM.
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  2. #122
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    Re: What is the top reason for the current US economic problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Yeah, about the time the government decided that hospitals couldn't "deny" care if someone were uninsured. Coincidence? I doubt it. It's also around the time all the equal care for everyone BS started, as if that could actually be achieved except at the lowest possible standard.

    And before you start the whole UHC diatribe, why don't you go look up the number of hospitals per capita, doctors per capita, newer technologies and their availability under UHC, waiting times to receive emergncy and non-emergency care and waiting times for different surgeries and if they are even available in UHC countries and the availability of newer more effective drugs under a UHC system. Oh, and check out the number of deaths following surgery from infection and compare those to the US vs UHC countries. I would provide you some of the data myself, except you would just complain about sources and say I was lying or using false data, so show us what you can find.

    And since you wanted to bring up medical tourism in the past, go ahead and look up how many Americans leave for health care and what for, then compare that to the numbers that come to America to get care and what for.
    What Canada and other countries found that upgraded to UHC was that overhead/administrative costs was the biggest savings. It costs more in overhead costs to run Blue Cross Blue Shield in one state here as it does to run the whole health care system in Canada.

    Further, "The U.S. wastes more on health care bureaucracy than it would cost to provide health care to all of the uninsured. Administrative expenses will consume at least $399.4 billion out of total health expenditures of $1,660.5 billion in 2003. Streamlining administrative overhead to Canadian levels would save approximately $286.0 billion in 2003, $6,940 for each of the 41.2 million Americans who were uninsured as of 2001. This is substantially more than would be needed to provide full insurance coverage."

    Publication Administrative Waste in the U.S.Health Care System in 2003 (HRG Publication #1673)
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #123
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    Re: What is the top reason for the current US economic problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What Canada and other countries found that upgraded to UHC was that overhead/administrative costs was the biggest savings. It costs more in overhead costs to run Blue Cross Blue Shield in one state here as it does to run the whole health care system in Canada.

    Further, "The U.S. wastes more on health care bureaucracy than it would cost to provide health care to all of the uninsured. Administrative expenses will consume at least $399.4 billion out of total health expenditures of $1,660.5 billion in 2003. Streamlining administrative overhead to Canadian levels would save approximately $286.0 billion in 2003, $6,940 for each of the 41.2 million Americans who were uninsured as of 2001. This is substantially more than would be needed to provide full insurance coverage."

    Publication Administrative Waste in the U.S.Health Care System in 2003 (HRG Publication #1673)
    It has to be emphasised, strongly, that those "administrative costs" are found in the private health insurance companies and not in some "massively swollen federal bureaucracy", no matter how much those on the right argue that 'business always does it better'
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
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  4. #124
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    Re: What is the top reason for the current US economic problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    It has to be emphasised, strongly, that those "administrative costs" are found in the private health insurance companies and not in some "massively swollen federal bureaucracy", no matter how much those on the right argue that 'business always does it better'
    You are right of course. I guess I thought people would get that from this:

    "It costs more in overhead costs to run Blue Cross Blue Shield in one state here as it does to run the whole health care system in Canada."
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  5. #125
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    Re: What is the top reason for the current US economic problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I was responding to your statement about inflated costs for people. We have had a huge cost increase in health care costs for people since 1975, the beginning date on your graph above.
    I'm sorry but I said nothing of the sort.
    I dunno who you were trying to respond to, but it wasn't me.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  6. #126
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    Re: What is the top reason for the current US economic problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Sorry, you were showing gains in manufacturing, not just automation replacing workers. Since the gains in manufacturing were the only numbers shown in dollars I assumed - obviously incorrectly - that you would figure out my comment was about the amount of manufacturing, not the workers.

    Your own chart (above) and your original chart (below) when adjusted for inflation shows manufacturing in America has been on the decline for decades.




    There are many sites that will adjust for inflation, I'll let you pick your own. The differences are big enough it shouldn't matter which one you use as long as it's USD.
    Here are the results from mine:

    1975 $100.00 (bottom chart $1500)
    1992 $261.12 (top chart $4.2)
    2008 $395.90 (top chart $5.6 but would need to be $6.36 to break even compared to 1992, more for growth)
    2009 $394.32 (bottom chart $3500 but would need to be $5915 to break even compared to 1975)
    Uhh, no it doesn't, it only shows a decline during the recession (dot com and most recent).
    It has steadily grown, outside of recessions.

    You must be reading another graph that wasn't here or you just made some numbers up.
    The link I posted is manufacturing output, adjusted for inflation.
    It even indicates so, at the bottom.
    Plus there is a sourced link to an NPR pod cast, that talks about machines replacing workers.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  7. #127
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    Re: What is the top reason for the current US economic problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Hey Bill, Hope you and the family are doing well!

    I looked at the congressional testimony, and I have to tell you I was about to be impressed...........until I did as you said and dug a little deeper. There was only one person that testified in that paper by the Hudson Institute. I wondered about the Hudson Institute as well because I had never heard of them, while I was very familiar with The American Journal of Medicine. Turns out that the Hudson Institute is an ultra conservative think tank and the lady speaking has a long association with ultra conservative groups, and the conservative Bush Administration.

    The study by the AJM also passes the smell test better as I know in my own case that our health insurance, being self-employed, is almost unaffordable, so I can see where many that are not as well off as we are, would not be able to afford health insurance. Then, if they have some major medical problem they are screwed financially.

    So, thanks, but I will have to go with the study by the American Journal of Medicine over the this lady at the Hudson Institute.


    Take care my friend!
    We are doing well, thanks....
    and you and yours?
    You claim to be a liberal, let me guide you away from the left leaning dark side of politics, in the direction of the right leaning of the dark side, but not all the way, you need to stop in the middle, where we modern moderates live. We know that the truth does not exist without bias from either end of the bell cruve of politics, but in the middle.
    Read both, listen to detractors, then use your intellect. I know you have some.....maybe not a lot to spare, but at least enough to see through a liberal who is pushing for Obamacare, and a conservative who is saying HELL NO WE DON'T WANT IT.
    Each party has all the facts, but interpret them in their own ways. Who woulda thunk it? Self interest clouds our collective vision concerning what might be a good thing for us all, in the long run.

    As for the cost of your insurance, I suggest shopping around...I had a short period of time where I was without employer provided insurance and age 60, when my Navy Reserve retirement and benefits kicked in. With a short history of colon cancer in the family, my father, and 3 of his kids having had precancerous polyps removed, I got a major medical policy for pretty cheap. It was just for me, of course, as my wife had her coverage where she worked. Adding me to her plan would have been very expensive, so I went to BCBS. My policy covered annual physical exam plus related lab work completely, no copay or deductible....but any actuall illness would have cost me $5K before they started paying.
    I know people who willingly pay $1K per month for a policy with no copay, no deductible....even after being shown the expense is not needed. My son, works same school district my wife retired from, has his wife and 3 kids on a major medical policy for about $450 per month, $1500 deductible and no copay, then all is paid at 100%, and the oldest child is costing the insurance company plenty. She is the one with the brain tumors, the original or first one is inoperable, the new one was major surgery. Quarterly MRI exams are needed, and are expensive.
    And remember, a salesman doesn't make much money selling you what you want or need, unless he has it.
    So, most of the time, expect the salesman to steer you to what he has in stock, not what is best for you.
    Oracle of Utah
    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

  8. #128
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    Re: What is the top reason for the current US economic problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Uhh, no it doesn't, it only shows a decline during the recession (dot com and most recent).
    It has steadily grown, outside of recessions.

    You must be reading another graph that wasn't here or you just made some numbers up.
    The link I posted is manufacturing output, adjusted for inflation.
    It even indicates so, at the bottom.
    Plus there is a sourced link to an NPR pod cast, that talks about machines replacing workers.
    I hunted down the article that went with the first graph and, yes, it's adjusted. When I asked earlier if the first graph was inflation adjusted I was ignored. Considering what that usually means around here you'll forgive me if I assumed it wasn't.


    I never argued that American manufacturing wasn't being automated. To me that's obvious. I remember taking a tour of the Ford plant here when I was young. They had just installed the first "robots" and I'll never forget that image. Back then automation - really, computer control of any kind - was new.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 07-29-12 at 11:44 AM.
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  9. #129
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    Re: What is the top reason for the current US economic problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    As for the rest - why don't you look up mortality rates and life expectancy in various countries including the US? Go see where we fit into those categories. I'll give you a hint: Even with our outrageous health care costs we are far from being #1 in either category.
    I know generally how we fit. But there are also other factors that affect both the life expectancy rates and mortality rates (including infant).

    What are the break downs by ethnicity for these factors?

    How many of these countries even have anything close to the racial diversity that we have?

    What are the obesity rates for these countries?
    Alcoholism?
    Diabities?
    Drug use?
    Accident rates?
    High colesterol?
    Heart desease?
    cancer?

    Our doctors and medical care services do a great job, witness the fact that we actually have a life expectency that high when we are the worlds best at trying the destroy ourselves.

  10. #130
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    Re: What is the top reason for the current US economic problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    It has to be emphasised, strongly, that those "administrative costs" are found in the private health insurance companies and not in some "massively swollen federal bureaucracy", no matter how much those on the right argue that 'business always does it better'
    Interesting thing I found while looking up information on this. First, what is being considered Administrative costs. I refer to as processing and filing of the paper work necessary for payments to be made, all the reports I scanned or read through list a lot more as counting as "Administrative", including adding profit to the term. In addition, while some want to blame private insurance companies, the government contracts some "administrative" services to private insurance companies, so it becomes unclear as to just how much Medicare, and none of them even mentioned Medicaid, costs are and some of the costs that should belong to Medicare/Medicaid get reported as costs inposed by insurance companies. Are there problems, sure, but I for one do not believe that UHC is the answer.

    Before all the "issues" of unequal care and care for the uninsured rose up, the uninsured were treated at volunteer hospitals, free clinic and community hospitals. If we went back to such a model, would the people using these facilities receive the same level of care as the privately insured or access to technologies enjoyed by the privately insured, no. Would the cost of insurance become more affordable to more Americans, yes. The government and other agency simply will not fund at the levels required. Neither will UHC. UHC cannot bring the highest level to all, it can only bring all to the lowest level the government is willing to fund.

    Currently there is no way to measure "business always does it better" because the equation has become unbalanced with government involvement and the inclusion of the uninsured into the whole equation. The only way to compare "massively swollen federal bureaucracy" vs "business always does it better" would be to seperate the two so that we have clear data for each. The current mixing makes the data unclear. For one thing, in all of the arguing about "massively swollen federal bureaucracy" vs "business always does it better", one side of the arguement doesn't want to take into account all the costs of care for the uninsured when considering and arguing that there is not "massively swollen federal bureaucracy."
    Last edited by DVSentinel; 07-29-12 at 02:24 PM.

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