View Poll Results: Did you / Do you use that argument?

Voters
23. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    17 73.91%
  • No

    6 26.09%
Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 45678 LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 75

Thread: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

  1. #51
    Uncanny
    Paschendale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    New York City
    Last Seen
    03-31-16 @ 04:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    12,510

    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Wow...really? Tell me this is hyperbole and you aren't being serious. You truly believe that no aspect what so ever of the Patriot Act has been used in such a way that it provided additional security for an American that would've likely not occured or occured in the same time span had PATROIT not existed?

    Note, all changes by PATROIT are not 100% relegated to Terrorist activities. A large portion of the law upgraded general survellience laws found in Title III of the 1968 OMNIBUS Crime Control and Safe Street acts and in the FIS Act. Those acts didn't apply JUST to terrorists. For example, expanding wiretapping laws to expliciately state how they work with email...something previously not found in such laws....was something updated in PATRIOT.
    Oh, so it's okay for Congress to pass laws under false pretenses? The specific intent of the Patriot Act was to combat terrorism. That was its purpose. That it is abused and used for other things makes it worse, not better.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  2. #52
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Oh, so it's okay for Congress to pass laws under false pretenses? The specific intent of the Patriot Act was to combat terrorism. That was its purpose. That it is abused and used for other things makes it worse, not better.
    Hey! Your rights and liberties were getting in the way of fighting terrorism. The PA was necessary to remove some of your rights and liberties in order to protect you from the big bad terrorist even though you are well more likely to come across TSA than a terrorist.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #53
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Oh, so it's okay for Congress to pass laws under false pretenses?
    Strawman. Where did I ever state or imply it is good that congress passes laws under false pretenses? What does it's pretenses have to do with whether or not it ever, in any fahsion, provided additional security for an American?

  4. #54
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    Some provisions of the PATRIOT act were useful, but not the ones that violate civil liberties.
    And I'd agree completely with the notion though we may quibble a bit on some of the ones violating civil liberties. I've never suggested there weren't problematic parts of the Patriot Act...and haven't suggested either way in this thread whether the whole act was bad or not.

    My only quibble was with the notion that nothing in it has ever in any fashion provided any amount of security what so ever.

  5. #55
    Uncanny
    Paschendale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    New York City
    Last Seen
    03-31-16 @ 04:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    12,510

    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Strawman. Where did I ever state or imply it is good that congress passes laws under false pretenses? What does it's pretenses have to do with whether or not it ever, in any fahsion, provided additional security for an American?
    The Patriot Act was expressly passed to combat terrorism. You said Note, all changes by PATROIT are not 100% relegated to Terrorist activities. A large portion of the law upgraded general survellience laws found in Title III of the 1968 OMNIBUS Crime Control and Safe Street acts and in the FIS Act. Those acts didn't apply JUST to terrorists. For example, expanding wiretapping laws to expliciately state how they work with email...something previously not found in such laws....was something updated in PATRIOT."

    You extolled the Act because it is useful for things other than catching terrorists, even though that was the specific purpose of the act. That it has been used beyond its intended purpose is a BAD THING. We never needed any such act because terrorism has never been a problem that warrants this kind of response. But that's okay in your view because we can use it to catch copyright infringements?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    My only quibble was with the notion that nothing in it has ever in any fashion provided any amount of security what so ever.
    It addressed a danger that wasn't ever really there. Terrorism is a minor threat. A tiny one. We were incredibly safe from terrorism in 2000, and yes, even in 2001. 9/11 was a fluke. It could not have happened again even a week later. And we were still equally safe from it in 2002, and now in 2012. So I must ask you, security from what? From all possible dangers in the whole world? There's no way to be safe from everything in the world, even if you give up all possible liberty and just live in a box. Safety from foreign threats? We were already safe from those before the Patriot Act, and were not safer after it in any meaningful way.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  6. #56
    Global Moderator
    Moderator

    Zyphlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    NoMoAuchie
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    47,998

    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    You extolled the Act because it is useful for things other than catching terrorists, even though that was the specific purpose of the act.
    No, I noted that simply pointing to what it's actions in regards to security relating to terrorism is not an accurate way of determining it's effect on security in general.

    That it has been used beyond its intended purpose is a BAD THING.
    And my comments gave no suggestion of it's "goodness" or "badness". It only spoke in terms of the notion of it's potential effect on security and the scope that effect could have.

    We never needed any such act because terrorism has never been a problem that warrants this kind of response. But that's okay in your view because we can use it to catch copyright infringements?
    I don't know. Since you wish to continually tell me what I'm thinking in this thread, perhaps you can go ahead and continue your strawman and answer that.

  7. #57
    Tavern Bartender
    Constitutionalist
    American's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    12-15-17 @ 10:49 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    76,323

    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So, I remember it coming up often early on in the debate with the Patriot Act. I'd love to see people come down on whether or not they used this argument.

    Did you/do you use the argument/thought process against the provisions of the Patriot Act that, paraphrasing, "He who gives up Liberty in exchange for Security, deserves neither"?
    I don't remember that far back, but I might have supported parts of it except maybe anything to do with warrantless searches. And I believe that was a huge argument, some saying it was common practice to conduct warrantless searches. Either way, whenever you give govt more authority you are reducing your own liberty.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  8. #58
    Sage
    Dittohead not!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The Golden State
    Last Seen
    Today @ 08:40 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    41,596

    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    When one steps back and takes a look at the core principles of the major societies, cultures, and spiritual movements which humanity has brought forth in the last 4000-5000 years, you tend to find that there is not a huge amount of difference. It is those commonalities in the vast majority of those institutions which forms Universal Morality, Ikari.
    Morality varies from culture to culture.

    As arbiter of morality in charge of deciding what Tigger needs to do to be moral, upright, and good, I dictate that he live in a matriarchal society.

    Since he doesn't value liberty, he must then subject himself to my moral arbitration or be deemed an evil person.

    As for me, I like making my own decisions.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  9. #59
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    New England
    Last Seen
    05-01-14 @ 03:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    12,879

    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Morality varies from culture to culture.

    As arbiter of morality in charge of deciding what Tigger needs to do to be moral, upright, and good, I dictate that he live in a matriarchal society.

    Since he doesn't value liberty, he must then subject himself to my moral arbitration or be deemed an evil person.
    The specifics may vary, but the core of almost all major cultures is the same.

    I have no problem being deemed an evil person (I already am by many); but I'd be called something else in that case...... DEAD.

  10. #60
    Educator OnWisconsin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Last Seen
    04-07-16 @ 02:59 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    710

    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    we live in a society.

    that means we find a balance between Freedoms & Security.

    I think the USA, as of right now, is at a good balance.

    sure, we could tweek our freedoms a little so we had more. But we also could tweek our security requirements so we'd be a little safer.

    Ben Franklin was WRONG, when he suggested that those who sacrifice some liberty for some security, deserve neither.

    this is what an intelligent modern society does.

    A good balance?...!...? Name one threat to us that deserves the degradation of our Liberty?

    The false flag of security only brings us closer to a police state which would bring us neither liberty or security. It would only bring us oppression.
    Last edited by OnWisconsin; 07-24-12 at 08:03 AM.
    Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?
    - Abraham Lincoln

    Before the war is ended, the war party assumes the divine right to denounce and silence all opposition to war as unpatriotic and cowardly.
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

    God, how patient are Thy poor! These corporations and masters of manipulation in finance heaping up great fortunes by a system of legalized extortion,
    and then exacting from the contributors--to whom a little means so much--a double share to guard the treasure!
    - Robert M. LaFollette, Wisconsin Governor and U.S. Senator

Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 45678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •