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Thread: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

  1. #41
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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    yes folks, we ALL sacrifice freedom for security.

    everytime you stop at a STOP sign, every time you wait for a walk signal at a cross-walk, every time you wait on line to buy something, every time you follow ANY law, you sacrifice a little freedom for a little security.

  2. #42
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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    When one steps back and takes a look at the core principles of the major societies, cultures, and spiritual movements which humanity has brought forth in the last 4000-5000 years, you tend to find that there is not a huge amount of difference. It is those commonalities in the vast majority of those institutions which forms Universal Morality, Ikari.
    Name them. Demonstrate their universal behavior cross culture. Hell, what was acceptable morality 100's (not even 1000's) of years ago is not acceptable now. Our "morality" is constantly being refined and it still does differ culture to culture to this very day.

    Demonstrate your universal morality.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #43
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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    The trouble with measures like the Patriot Act was that we gave up liberty (a lot or a little can be argued, but I say a lot) for no actual security. We went nuts over the terrorist boogeymen when we should have just laughed in their faces. We are the mighty United States of America. They're a bunch of dicks hiding in caves, buying our secondhand weapons from a generation ago. There is literally nothing that Al Qaeda can do or could have done to destroy this country, unless we wallow in our fear and do it for them.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  4. #44
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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The trouble with measures like the Patriot Act was that we gave up liberty (a lot or a little can be argued, but I say a lot) for no actual security.....
    really? our security hasn't been increased due to the PATRIOT Act?

    prove it.

  5. #45
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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The trouble with measures like the Patriot Act was that we gave up liberty (a lot or a little can be argued, but I say a lot) for no actual security.
    That's because the vast majority of Americans don't know what actual SECURITY is, and wouldn't like it even if they DID know what it is.

  6. #46
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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The trouble with measures like the Patriot Act was that we gave up liberty (a lot or a little can be argued, but I say a lot) for no actual security. We went nuts over the terrorist boogeymen when we should have just laughed in their faces. We are the mighty United States of America. They're a bunch of dicks hiding in caves, buying our secondhand weapons from a generation ago. There is literally nothing that Al Qaeda can do or could have done to destroy this country, unless we wallow in our fear and do it for them.
    Certainly not on any aggregate scale. The probabilities involved have not decreased significantly. Terrorism is still a low probability event, it was before and it is now. The aggregate effect we DO have is an increased amount of government force and intervention in our daily lives.

    That's the real difference between terrorism and government. Terrorism may affect you eventually given enough time. Government WILL affect you.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #47
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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    really? our security hasn't been increased due to the PATRIOT Act?

    prove it.
    I should reiterate. We are no safer because of it. Terrorism has always been a minute risk in our lives. More people die by suicide in this country, this year, last year, 1970, and 2001, than do by terrorist acts. You are more hazardous to your life than Al Qaeda is.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    for no actual security.
    Wow...really? Tell me this is hyperbole and you aren't being serious. You truly believe that no aspect what so ever of the Patriot Act has been used in such a way that it provided additional security for an American that would've likely not occured or occured in the same time span had PATROIT not existed?

    Note, all changes by PATROIT are not 100% relegated to Terrorist activities. A large portion of the law upgraded general survellience laws found in Title III of the 1968 OMNIBUS Crime Control and Safe Street acts and in the FIS Act. Those acts didn't apply JUST to terrorists. For example, expanding wiretapping laws to expliciately state how they work with email...something previously not found in such laws....was something updated in PATRIOT.

  9. #49
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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Wow...really? Tell me this is hyperbole and you aren't being serious. You truly believe that no aspect what so ever of the Patriot Act has been used in such a way that it provided additional security for an American that would've likely not occured or occured in the same time span had PATROIT not existed?
    I'm sure you can provide us with the data that shows significant and statistically resolved decrease in "danger" due solely to the Patriot Act, yes?

    If not, I have a rock that does exactly the same thing, I'll sell it to you for 50K.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #50
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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Wow...really? Tell me this is hyperbole and you aren't being serious. You truly believe that no aspect what so ever of the Patriot Act has been used in such a way that it provided additional security for an American that would've likely not occured or occured in the same time span had PATROIT not existed?

    Note, all changes by PATROIT are not 100% relegated to Terrorist activities. A large portion of the law upgraded general survellience laws found in Title III of the 1968 OMNIBUS Crime Control and Safe Street acts and in the FIS Act. Those acts didn't apply JUST to terrorists. For example, expanding wiretapping laws to expliciately state how they work with email...something previously not found in such laws....was something updated in PATRIOT.
    Some provisions of the PATRIOT act were useful, but not the ones that violate civil liberties. 9/11 didn't happen because the feds were prevented from getting a warrant on the suspects. Non-controversial changes like improving inter-agency co-operation could have made the difference.

    Much of the argument on security is based on the entirely unsupported idea that repressive and immoral techniques are actually more effective. The truth is that torture isn't any better than other forms of interrogation, getting a warrant is not a impediment to legitimate investigations and molesting airplane passengers is entirely pointless.

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