View Poll Results: Did you / Do you use that argument?

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Thread: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

  1. #31
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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Yes, I have used the quote in the past and will likely do so in the future. It is a bit hyperbolic because sometimes a tradeoff IS justified. But the increase in security had better be pretty damn substantial to justify even a slight reduction in liberty. That goes for things like the Patriot Act. Things like the TSA. Things like gun control.

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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    You shouldn't just pick and choose what supports your side, you should base your side on the facts, your side of the discussion should be contingent on reason and facts, not the otherway around.
    My viewpoint is based on Morality, Values, and what I believe Right and Wrong to be. Whether the facts support my beliefs or not is irrelevant so far as I'm concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    There NEVER WAS a golden age of common decency/morality or whatever.
    I would tend to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    in fact sometimes i cant decide whether the liberty is more important or not ,because it may depend on some conditions.yes i care about liberty and consider it indisputable must .if somebody is trying to harm you ,you cant have freedom unless you get rid of that threat
    Obviously there has to be a middle ground. I would suggest that there are some ESSENTIAL Liberties that should not be given up for the sake of safety. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms, for example. However, to suggest that there is no level of Liberty which should be sacrificed in the name of Safety is utterly stupid so far as I'm concerned.

  3. #33
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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I disagree. I would be more likely to agree if I felt that there was even a shred of common decency, morality, OR values left in the American citizenry at this point in time. I don't believe there is any amount of even one of those three things left in this country's residents at this point in history; and unfortunately this weekend's news stories shows that quite well.

    Liberty is only truly useful when one can be trusted to do the Right Things with it.
    Does that mean you're OK with someone else deciding what the Right Things are, and forcing you to do them, or does it mean that you want to be the one deciding and forcing others to do them?

    Usually, when someone is arguing that liberty is not important, they're talking about someone else's liberty. Perhaps you're different.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  4. #34
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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So, I remember it coming up often early on in the debate with the Patriot Act. I'd love to see people come down on whether or not they used this argument.

    Did you/do you use the argument/thought process against the provisions of the Patriot Act that, paraphrasing, "He who gives up Liberty in exchange for Security, deserves neither"?
    Not that quote, but the line of logic yes. I've often stated that free is not safe and never meant to be safe, we shall never be "safe" as long as we're free. To yield freedom to "security" is foolish and can leave you with neither.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Not that quote, but the line of logic yes. I've often stated that free is not safe and never meant to be safe, we shall never be "safe" as long as we're free. To yield freedom to "security" is foolish and can leave you with neither.
    Exactly.

    Moreover, there is no such thing as total safety. There is always a risk to everything.

    I like to calculate my own odds, make my own decisions, and live with the consequences of those decisions, but, then that's just me. Others seem to want to have Big Brother telling them what to do and what not to do.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Does that mean you're OK with someone else deciding what the Right Things are, and forcing you to do them, or does it mean that you want to be the one deciding and forcing others to do them?
    Some of both. I am a believer in a concept called Universal Morality, which I believe should be the basis for all government and laws; whether I like/agree with all of it or not.

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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    Some of both. I am a believer in a concept called Universal Morality, which I believe should be the basis for all government and laws; whether I like/agree with all of it or not.
    So, if I'm the arbitrator of that universal morality, and I say that you are to obey your wife, let her make all of the important decisions in your life because that's the moral thing to do, then you'd be OK with it?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    So, if I'm the arbitrator of that universal morality, and I say that you are to obey your wife, let her make all of the important decisions in your life because that's the moral thing to do, then you'd be OK with it?
    If one were to assume it worked that way, then it would be time for me to eat that specially made bullet on my dresser. There is always another option when one does not agree with the rules of society.

    Now, thankfully Universal Morality doesn't need an arbitor... it has several THOUSAND years of history to back it up; but I think we both made our point.

  9. #39
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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    If one were to assume it worked that way, then it would be time for me to eat that specially made bullet on my dresser. There is always another option when one does not agree with the rules of society.

    Now, thankfully Universal Morality doesn't need an arbitor... it has several THOUSAND years of history to back it up; but I think we both made our point.
    No it doesn't Morality varies culture to culture, people to people. I think it's very evident from thousands of years of history that there is no such thing as a "universal morality" and what we believe is moral and immoral changes over time. As such, you shall need an arbitrator.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Patriot Act: Liberty for Security

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No it doesn't Morality varies culture to culture, people to people. I think it's very evident from thousands of years of history that there is no such thing as a "universal morality" and what we believe is moral and immoral changes over time. As such, you shall need an arbitrator.
    When one steps back and takes a look at the core principles of the major societies, cultures, and spiritual movements which humanity has brought forth in the last 4000-5000 years, you tend to find that there is not a huge amount of difference. It is those commonalities in the vast majority of those institutions which forms Universal Morality, Ikari.

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