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"Obamacare" or UHC?

Would You Rather Have Obamacare or a System of UHC?


  • Total voters
    46
I recently signed a will and advanced directives. I had an option to select "keep me alive indefinitely" in case of unconsciousness an questionable/doubtful chance of full recovery. Not even death can scare me into thinking its financially sustainable to give people that option. But that's only one little example of waste in our free-for-all health care system. No one gets a tough answer, thus expenditures have no ceiling. "Affordable Care" my ***. Straight up doublespeak.
The actual issue is over how to replace what is already the most expensive and at least one of the most dysfunctional health care systems in the developed world with something that might serve us all a little better. Appropriate end-of-life planning and care are of course a part of that, and clearly there should be no issue over doctors being compensated under insurance plans for the time they spend counseling patients on such matters. Final care itself is something that can't be foreseen and certainly can't be legislated. Doctors, patients, and their families make those calls. Be sure your own wishes have been made crystal clear so that emotions do not come to undo what you believe to be done.
 
So for the record, you are strongly against the insurance mandate?

No, its better than what we had, but is just a baby step towards UHC which we will eventually have to upgrade to as the rest of the industrialized world has done.
 
No, its better than what we had,

So the mandate, which you call a conservative idea, is something that both you and President Obama supported. Fair enough.

But... no, it isn't better than what we had. No law that forces us to keep forking it over to a private corporation as a response to feeling ripped off by said corporation is... a retarded idea.

The actual issue is over how to replace what is already the most expensive and at least one of the most dysfunctional health care systems in the developed world with something that might serve us all a little better.

There is no way for it to serve us better until the costs of care are cheaper. Do you agree the "Affordable CARE Act" is an intentional misnomer/deception? If not, explain what forces the costs of care cheaper under PPACA. It doesn't look like anyone has been able to do that.

Appropriate end-of-life planning and care are of course a part of that, and clearly there should be no issue over doctors being compensated under insurance plans for the time they spend counseling patients on such matters. Final care itself is something that can't be foreseen and certainly can't be legislated. Doctors, patients, and their families make those calls.

None of whom have any financial stake in the decision though, at that point, right? Couldn't a stubborn patient demand more and more life-saving hail marys at the expense of the collective? Or is that something that we shouldn't allow? It's really just one example of health care we probably should NOT be covering.
 
Wish there was a third option, but UHC is farther from having a choice than Obamacare. I could be wrong though. Obamacare is a tax, and UHC is a system. I will take the tax over another government run agency.
 
There is no way for it to serve us better until the costs of care are cheaper.
I'm not sure if you have an objective here other than breast-beating and Obama-bashing, but a few seconds of thought would have revealed that there are many potential ways in which we could be better served that don't involve costs at all. And when it comes to discussing costs, you need to define your terms. What qualifies as "cheaper"? I raised this point earlier while not expecting to see a reply.

Do you agree the "Affordable CARE Act" is an intentional misnomer/deception?
As compared to what, the USA-PATRIOT Act? Do you agree that what is most important about a bill is its provisions rather than its title, and that it is silly to focus on what is actually trivial?

If not, explain what forces the costs of care cheaper under PPACA. It doesn't look like anyone has been able to do that.
I noted several earlier, but are you aware of the 50% discount on brand-name drugs that manufacturers must provide under PPACA to seniors with Medicare Part-D coverage who are affected by the doughnut-hole? I'm reasonably sure that ths will be dismissed for any of a number of rhetorical reasons, so what about the required rebates of premiums to consumers in years when any less than 85% of them is spent for actual health care services? Anticipating that this will be found not to count either, how about the standardization of various paperwork activities related to plan enrollment and claims processing? You know, in France it would not be at all uncommon to walk into a doctor's office (easier to do there since they have more of them per capita than we do) and find no one working there who was not a degreed or certified medical professional. Their claims system is so simple that paper-pushing admin assistants are simply not required under most circumstances. I know...job killer.

None of whom have any financial stake in the decision though, at that point, right?
In your world, I'm sure quite a lot of people would insist on extended care simply because they didn't want to shell out for funeral costs.

Couldn't a stubborn patient demand more and more life-saving hail marys at the expense of the collective? Or is that something that we shouldn't allow? It's really just one example of health care we probably should NOT be covering.
Death panels bad, death panels good. PPACA critics can't seem to make up their minds. And as long as there is an outlier out there to argue from, we can count on its being raised no matter how uncommon it might become. By the way, what would your take be on assisted suicide being covered by insurance?
 
Wish there was a third option, but UHC is farther from having a choice than Obamacare. I could be wrong though. Obamacare is a tax, and UHC is a system. I will take the tax over another government run agency.
PPACA is legislation that establishes and modifies various taxes as part of at last controlling the health care financing system. UHC is a health care financing system that is based on taxes.
 
Yeah, the world has that - they call it "Hong Kong".

And most of the third world to varying degrees.

Also Hong Kong IS the libertarian paradise if ...

A: The government ownes ALL the land and rents it in a libertarian paradise, keeping the land artificially high so as to keep taxes low
B: You have a lot of social welfare including a public healthcare system
C: Runs almost entirely on foreign finance and investment
D: Relies hugely on foreign educated labor
E: Is 100% dependant on foreign corporations which use it as a tax haven while recieving support from other governments and demand from outside.
F: Oh and a nationalized stock exchange.
 
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No, its better than what we had, but is just a baby step towards UHC which we will eventually have to upgrade to as the rest of the industrialized world has done.

Will we? I've been expecting it for years. Back when the cost of health insurance went up 30-40% a year, I thought, oh, well, we'll soon join the civilized world. When Hillary Clinton spearheaded the effort back in the '90s, I thought it was only a matter of time.

Now, with health care consuming 17% of the GDP while other nations spend half that, give or take, and have better results, we're still committed to keeping what we have in the name of ideology and fear of "socialism".
 
At least by the lay of the land as it is known today, there is no functional alternative to a single-payer UHC system of some sort. There are at least a dozen different varieties of that functioning in the world today, and we will ultimately develop a new one of our own. The tricky questions however have nothing to do with that, but rather with the means and path by which we try to get there from the god-awful here. Caveman and meta-axe technology will fail in this arena. Our long-term success depends on being both honest and clever. It seems though that there are rather limited numbers who can manage that. Perhaps we should try harder.
 
I'm not sure if you have an objective here other than breast-beating and Obama-bashing, but a few seconds of thought would have revealed that there are many potential ways in which we could be better served that don't involve costs at all.

Costs were the reason we needed reform. Most expensive health care in the world means any reform must address costs.

And when it comes to discussing costs, you need to define your terms. What qualifies as "cheaper"? I raised this point earlier while not expecting to see a reply.

What do you mean "what qualifies as cheaper?"

As compared to what, the USA-PATRIOT Act? Do you agree that what is most important about a bill is its provisions rather than its title, and that it is silly to focus on what is actually trivial?

A "who's John Galt" reply. I don't think it's trivial to name a bill something when what it does is the opposite and intentionally deceives millions. A more adequate comparison would have been if they'd named the Patriot Act the Privacy Protection Act.

I noted several earlier, but are you aware of the 50% discount on brand-name drugs that manufacturers must provide under PPACA to seniors with Medicare Part-D coverage who are affected by the doughnut-hole?

Medicare D is the most destructive welfare benefit in history. Even if manufacturers don't just spread this to other customers, it really just buys this financial hemorrhage of a program a wee bit more time.

I'm reasonably sure that ths will be dismissed for any of a number of rhetorical reasons, so what about the required rebates of premiums to consumers in years when any less than 85% of them is spent for actual health care services?

Creates a more-you-spend-more-you-earn scenario, encouraging overutilization of health care. They can just raise premiums that much faster. Does nothing to address the exploding costs of the care or the overutitilization/overcoverage thereof.

Anticipating that this will be found not to count either, how about the standardization of various paperwork activities related to plan enrollment and claims processing? You know, in France it would not be at all uncommon to walk into a doctor's office (easier to do there since they have more of them per capita than we do) and find no one working there who was not a degreed or certified medical professional. Their claims system is so simple that paper-pushing admin assistants are simply not required under most circumstances. I know...job killer.

You said it, not me. Maybe this saves some money, but how much of our health care problem was admin assistant wages?

Death panels bad, death panels good. PPACA critics can't seem to make up their minds.

If government provides guarantee to health care according to his need, their options are to implement death panels if they want to contain costs, or to simply not contain costs.

By the way, what would your take be on assisted suicide being covered by insurance?

Same way I feel about zit-popping being covered by insurance. There's no reason for it to be expensive enough to need to be.
 
Costs were the reason we needed reform. Most expensive health care in the world means any reform must address costs.
And worst levels of quality mean that any reform must address quality. Now that we've answered those two key questions, all that's left is to figure out how to do it without incurring a boatload of massive dislocation costs.

What do you mean "what qualifies as cheaper?"
Hmmm. I'll repeat from Post-76 already referenced once since...

Would that be unit costs or overall costs? And what is the reference point from which cost reductions are to be calculated? To be more precise, if I do 10 procedures this year at $10 each, and 12 next year at $9 each, have costs gone up or down? And if costs at some point in the future are higher than they are today, but lower than they would have been extrapolated at current rates of increase from today, have costs gone up or down?

A "who's John Galt" reply. I don't think it's trivial to name a bill something when what it does is the opposite and intentionally deceives millions. A more adequate comparison would have been if they'd named the Patriot Act the Privacy Protection Act.
A "who's Bill O'Reilly" reply. When lacking any salient point to make, just maximize the volume-nonsense product.

Medicare D is the most destructive welfare benefit in history. Even if manufacturers don't just spread this to other customers, it really just buys this financial hemorrhage of a program a wee bit more time.
Bush suppressed actual cost analyses, banned price negotiations, then refused to provide a funding source for Part-D. You just can't expect much good math from people who think that tax cuts will increase government revenue.

Creates a more-you-spend-more-you-earn scenario, encouraging overutilization of health care. They can just raise premiums that much faster. Does nothing to address the exploding costs of the care or the overutitilization/overcoverage thereof.
Speaking of bad math, cashflow is fixed from January 1 since you can't raise current year premiums. If 85% of the total you collect during the year doesn't go to purposes actually related to health care, you overcharged and the overage has to be refunded to customers. Previously, some 25-30% of a consumer's health care dollar was going to something other than health care.

You said it, not me. Maybe this saves some money, but how much of our health care problem was admin assistant wages?
Way too much has been going to adminstrative overhead, none of it improving the actual health of anyone. And I assume you do realize that a particular cost reduction need not in and of itself resolve our health care financing problems in order to be worthwhile. Each step taken toward that goal is worthwhile, I hope you would agree.

If government provides guarantee to health care according to his need, their options are to implement death panels if they want to contain costs, or to simply not contain costs.
Repeating a meritless claim does not improve it. Intro to Reality -- In 2010 research, surveys among populations of vulnerable elders showed that 93% preferred dying to lingering in a coma, being on a mechanical ventilator, or being on a feeding tube. You are claiming problems based upon conditions that you assume but which do not in fact exist.

And as a personal FYI, some 73% of those surveyed above indicated that they had completed an Advance Directive and given a copy to their health care provider. At none of the survey sites had such directives made it into the medical record of as many as half of those who said they had completed one. Something to keep in mind?

Same way I feel about zit-popping being covered by insurance. There's no reason for it to be expensive enough to need to be.
This at answer is worth 0 points.
 
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This is like picking between being raped once a month and being raped twice a week.

You have to pick the former, but you still want to NOT be raped at all.
 
And worst levels of quality mean that any reform must address quality.

That wasn't the emergent reason to need reform.

Would that be unit costs or overall costs? And what is the reference point from which cost reductions are to be calculated? To be more precise, if I do 10 procedures this year at $10 each, and 12 next year at $9 each, have costs gone up or down?


Unit. Down.

A "who's Bill O'Reilly" reply. When lacking any salient point to make, just maximize the volume-nonsense product.

I guess I'll have to assume that you quite simply dont care that the affordable care act was designed in a way that makes care less affordable, and thus deceive everyone as to it's function prior to being passed.

Bush suppressed actual cost analyses, banned price negotiations, then refused to provide a funding source for Part-D. You just can't expect much good math from people who think that tax cuts will increase government revenue.

I don't expect good math from anyone looking to justfy expanding handout programs.

Speaking of bad math, cashflow is fixed from January 1 since you can't raise current year premiums. If 85% of the total you collect during the year doesn't go to purposes actually related to health care, you overcharged and the overage has to be refunded to customers.

It still encourages spending more on health care over time, when we ought to spend less.

Previously, some 25-30% of a consumer's health care dollar was going to something other than health care.

Previously their revenues weren't federally mandated.

Way too much has been going to adminstrative overhead, none of it improving the actual health of anyone.

None of it, huh?
 
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With how screwed up the medical system is already, neither. Everything the government touches turns to **** shortly after.

Precisely why it's time to privatize the military. The government can't run anything right, so it's a wonder we ever win any wars, and no wonder at all why our military costs more than that of anyone else.

So, privatize it. Pay a contracting company according to how many enemies get killed, how many battles won, what new spiffy military hardware they can develop. Why, we'd save a ton of money and provide private sector jobs while doing so.

I'm surprised that the right wing hasn't already championed the cause.
 
Precisely why it's time to privatize the military. The government can't run anything right, so it's a wonder we ever win any wars, and no wonder at all why our military costs more than that of anyone else.

So, privatize it. Pay a contracting company according to how many enemies get killed, how many battles won, what new spiffy military hardware they can develop. Why, we'd save a ton of money and provide private sector jobs while doing so.

I'm surprised that the right wing hasn't already championed the cause.

Championing such a thing would be admitting not understanding rational economics, but then, so is championing UHC. Yes, its no wonder the right doesn't champion either. :roll:
 
Precisely why it's time to privatize the military. The government can't run anything right, so it's a wonder we ever win any wars, and no wonder at all why our military costs more than that of anyone else.

So, privatize it. Pay a contracting company according to how many enemies get killed, how many battles won, what new spiffy military hardware they can develop. Why, we'd save a ton of money and provide private sector jobs while doing so.

I'm surprised that the right wing hasn't already championed the cause.

:doh

Kidding me right? Who will these private companies call to? Who will they answer to? Did Backwater already not prove that **** storm that comes out of privatized military contracts?
 
I'm beginning to think that we should just have a "libertarian opt-out" for everything. Better yet why don't we set aside a parcel of land so that the libertarians can have their own paradise lol. That would be quite an experiment.

I'd rather see the liberals shipped off to some third world country so they can screw THEM up instead of screwing up successful first world countries.
 
I'd rather see the liberals shipped off to some third world country so they can screw THEM up instead of screwing up successful first world countries.

How do you screw up a Third World country? They're already screwed up. Nice try.
 
So the mandate, which you call a conservative idea, is something that both you and President Obama supported. Fair enough.

It was the congressional compromise to go with the conservative's insurance mandate, which was created by the Heritage Foundation as an alternative to UHC.

But... no, it isn't better than what we had. No law that forces us to keep forking it over to a private corporation as a response to feeling ripped off by said corporation is... a retarded idea.

It provides health care coverage to all. That far outweighs your objections to people who can afford it having to pay for their own health care as far as I am concerned.



There is no way for it to serve us better until the costs of care are cheaper. Do you agree the "Affordable CARE Act" is an intentional misnomer/deception? If not, explain what forces the costs of care cheaper under PPACA. It doesn't look like anyone has been able to do that.

Its affordable because those that cannot afford it will receive assistance in paying it.



None of whom have any financial stake in the decision though, at that point, right? Couldn't a stubborn patient demand more and more life-saving hail marys at the expense of the collective? Or is that something that we shouldn't allow? It's really just one example of health care we probably should NOT be covering.

I have not read about that having been a problem in all the rest of the industrialized world that has already upgraded to UHC.
 
Will we? I've been expecting it for years. Back when the cost of health insurance went up 30-40% a year, I thought, oh, well, we'll soon join the civilized world. When Hillary Clinton spearheaded the effort back in the '90s, I thought it was only a matter of time.

Now, with health care consuming 17% of the GDP while other nations spend half that, give or take, and have better results, we're still committed to keeping what we have in the name of ideology and fear of "socialism".

Social evolution does not happen quickly my friend. You can see the same phenomenon with our spending on the military and optional wars. Eventually, we will have no financial choice but to upgrade to UHC and stop spending as much as the rest of the world combined on the military.
 
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