View Poll Results: Would You Rather Have Obamacare or a System of UHC?

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  • "Obamacare"

    8 14.81%
  • Universal Health Care

    46 85.19%
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Thread: "Obamacare" or UHC?

  1. #81
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    ... 2. A civilized society will not tolerate letting the indigent, the illegal, or even the indolent die on the curb. Although it can be frustrating, I think that's a Good Thing.
    So you think the Tea Party thing, where you don't get even ER care if your not going to pay for it is not OK? (But, gosh, I was at a Tea Party demonstration and several of them didn't know that Medicare was government.)

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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    So, he saw Obamacare as a step in that direction...
    He didn't actually see anything. He set out a few basic requirements then threw the ball into Congress's court and asked them to cobble together their best ideas for how to move forward given the disaster that loomed on the horizon as the price of doing nothing. Thereafter, Obama served as POC and negotiator with several major stakeholders to find out first what they felt they needed and then what they felt they could support. That info was made available to Congress. Republicans of course simply quit playing altogether after July of 2009, but in spite of that, well over a hundred Republican amendments appear in the final bill. Keep in mind though that the objective was never to produce a bill that everyone would like. It was to produce a bill where enough people to pass it would be able to say that there's a lot that I don't like in this bill, but there's enough that I do like that I'm going to vote for it anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    ...and had they been able to keep the Government Option in the package it would have been more of a step in that direction instead of a boon for health insurance companies.
    Everyone has to be brought along. Starting from where they are right now. You cannot kill the insurance companies. You cannot kill major drug and device manufacturers. Without them, people die. The boon for the industry is in those up to 30 million new people with health care coverage. That's a lot of potential new profit, and to help try to get the law passed that would create access to that new profit, they have agreed to and accepted new rules and new cost structues that share the boon with the taxpayer. Has it all been done exactly right? Of course not, but where there once was nothing to work with at all, there are now all those terrible thousands and thousands of pages to go to and make the necessary adjustments. This is a HUGE step forward.

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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    How much of our health care is provided to people in their last year of life? This could be huge.
    More likely to be stupid. Or are you intending to run for Death Panel Chairman or something? By the way, are you counting the expenses of trying to save an infant who dies before the age of one?

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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Wrong. People can opt to pay the tax until they get sick and need tons of medical care. Like waiting until the car accident to take out a policy with GEICO. That leads to astronomical increases.
    Do the math. Are the taxes a greater or smaller "shared responsibility payment" than would have been made absent the provisions of PPACA? I see only an answer to indicate that increases will at the very worst be considerably less "astronomical" than otherwise.

  5. #85
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Harder than having done nothing at all? That's absurd. And you seriously need to brush up on the levels of exemption, subsidy, and taxation in PPACA. In the meantime, no place else is here. It isn't that people -- well at least the people actually involved -- don't know how national systems in other countries are structured or how and how well they work, but rather that the US isn't any of those places. Just as the national systems of other developed countries are unique and were brought about piece by piece to fit the special needs, preferences, and circmstances of those countries, ours must do the same. The French think the British NHS is a pile of socialist rubbish. But they love their system, and with very good reason.
    Yes I see Obama care as moving farther from a UHC system and entrenching the health insurance plan system. This will make it harder to create any UHC system. In other words I see Obamacare having to be pretty much torn down to go to UHC and I see that as harder to do than having no system at all to remove first. Yes I understand political expediency and only being able to do so much, yet I still think it's a step in the wrong direction. Yes I admit I could could be wrong only time will tell.
    I agree you need your own system in the USA, my personal opinion is that Obama care will make it harder to go to UHC again time will tell.
    Do I think Canada has the best system possible? Nope I think it can definetly be improved. Some improvements however are/will be hard to do because of the way the system was set up. If we started with a clean slate I think it would be easier to have a better system than we have now but we gotta deal with what we got.
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  6. #86
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    I'm beginning to think that we should just have a "libertarian opt-out" for everything. Better yet why don't we set aside a parcel of land so that the libertarians can have their own paradise lol. That would be quite an experiment.
    Ever played BioShock? That's what a pure libertarian experiment would look like.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Planar View Post
    I don't claim to be an expert, but I probably know more than everyone in this forum debating the topic.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton

  7. #87
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then, replying to Karl View Post
    So you think the Tea Party thing, where you don't get even ER care if your not going to pay for it is not OK? (But, gosh, I was at a Tea Party demonstration and several of them didn't know that Medicare was government.)
    I'm having trouble parsing your triple negative, but I'm fairly certain that my answer to your question is "yes".

    Thanks for the mental gymnastics; this has been the most difficult reply of the day

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    1. We need to work on that.
    One would think a $1.75 Trillion dollar "affordable care act" WOULD HAVE ****ING WORKED ON THAT!

    2. A civilized society will not tolerate letting the indigent, the illegal, or even the indolent die on the curb. Although it can be frustrating, I think that's a Good Thing.
    A civilized society doesn't intentionally bankrupt its citizens by 1) failing epically to suppress costs of the care it's entitling to its whole population, and 2) mandating people keep paying for it regardless of how high those costs go, and then in a monumental act of irony,
    call it an "affordable care" act. That is a one-two punch to the junk.

  9. #89
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    He didn't actually see anything. He set out a few basic requirements then threw the ball into Congress's court and asked them to cobble together their best ideas for how to move forward given the disaster that loomed on the horizon as the price of doing nothing. Thereafter, Obama served as POC and negotiator with several major stakeholders to find out first what they felt they needed and then what they felt they could support. That info was made available to Congress. Republicans of course simply quit playing altogether after July of 2009, but in spite of that, well over a hundred Republican amendments appear in the final bill. Keep in mind though that the objective was never to produce a bill that everyone would like. It was to produce a bill where enough people to pass it would be able to say that there's a lot that I don't like in this bill, but there's enough that I do like that I'm going to vote for it anyway. [...]
    While I disgree with your intial statement, I mostly agree with your analysis that followed. I think that Obama's ultimate goal was and is UHC, and that Obamacare -- which I don't think turned out exactly as he envisioned, especially with the missing Public Option -- was envisioned as a currently politically palatable precursor to UHC.

    He's taking the long view, moving the ball down the field in a game that I think he realizes will continue beyond his term in office. If I am correct, then that is a refreshing approach for a politician.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    More likely to be stupid. Or are you intending to run for Death Panel Chairman or something? By the way, are you counting the expenses of trying to save an infant who dies before the age of one?
    Sure, why not? Maybe I should specify further, how many health care dollars are spent on people with very low chances of survival even with the treatments/procedures?

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