View Poll Results: Would You Rather Have Obamacare or a System of UHC?

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  • "Obamacare"

    8 14.81%
  • Universal Health Care

    46 85.19%
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Thread: "Obamacare" or UHC?

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    While that will need to be addressed (I'm thinking the current monetary penalty/tax could be modified to include limb removal, or at the very least public caning), such gamers of the system will incur no additional overall system cost than what they are incurring now by simply being uninsured until their ailment reaches emergency status, at which point hospitals and doctors must treat them essentially for free (recouping the cost from others).
    But it destroys their credit and breaks their bank until they qualify for state-funded coverage that they don't pay for, so whatever, ultimately you're admitting that this provision 1) RAISES costs and 2) doesn't really improve anything about the system. People who get sick and have no money can continue gaming the system one way or another. Hell they can refuse to pay the tax and, at worst, forego their refund.

    At least under Obamacare they're paying the fine/tax/whatever. Now they're paying nothing. But as I noted, the penalty must be made more painful -- somehow, some way.
    The more painful you make it, the more incentive they have to simply not pay it. What's government gonna do if they don't? What do hospitals do if they dont pay currently?

    Ultimately? Nothing. One way or another a bunch of poor people can rack up infinite amounts of health care and spread the cost elsewhere. There is no cost containment incentive, hence costs go crazy.

    We're letting health care bankrupt us die to our refusal to restrict it from non-payers.

  2. #72
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by pilot16 View Post
    I think a tax on medical devices will be way bigger than people realize and it could be a jobs killer. [...]
    You see that point there, in your quote, where I put the ellipses? That's where I stopped reading. Politically crafted partisan talking points are neither debate nor discussion.

  3. #73
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    That's not an answer. You made a false statement, in an attempt to ridicule a political belief system, using hyperbole and just plain ole false information.
    I was blowing you off to prevent derailing the thread. You'd already got your return shot in. I'll gladly debate libertarianism in another thread; in this one, I'm done.

  4. #74
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    UHC but then I am Canadian. I see Obamacare as being pretty much the worst possible way to go. It is a tax on those who can least afford it and will make it even harder to move to a UHC system.
    Harder than having done nothing at all? That's absurd. And you seriously need to brush up on the levels of exemption, subsidy, and taxation in PPACA. In the meantime, no place else is here. It isn't that people -- well at least the people actually involved -- don't know how national systems in other countries are structured or how and how well they work, but rather that the US isn't any of those places. Just as the national systems of other developed countries are unique and were brought about piece by piece to fit the special needs, preferences, and circmstances of those countries, ours must do the same. The French think the British NHS is a pile of socialist rubbish. But they love their system, and with very good reason.

  5. #75
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    But it destroys their credit and breaks their bank until they qualify for state-funded coverage that they don't pay for, so whatever, ultimately you're admitting that this provision 1) RAISES costs and 2) doesn't really improve anything about the system. People who get sick and have no money can continue gaming the system one way or another. Hell they can refuse to pay the tax and, at worst, forego their refund. [...]
    I'm somewhat losing the thread of our conversation, but I'll say that IMHO the majority of the currently uninsured will comply with the mandate, thereby increasing the pool of insureds, which is a Good Thing. Yes, the gov't will be picking up the tab for many of these, and that is going to be the path to UHC. The capitalist model is not working; mainly because the capitalist model always strives for a better (or cheaper) mousetrap, and since healthcare can't be outsourced they can only go for better, which we simply can't afford due to wonderful but breathtakingly expensive technology and procedures.

    Yes, there will be some gamers, as there was in Massachussetts, but I think that can be dealt with after it arises. In other words, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

  6. #76
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    ACA won't reduce costs.
    Would that be unit costs or overall costs? And what is the reference point from which cost reductions are to be calculated? To be more precise, if I do 10 procedures this year at $10 each, and 12 next year at $9 each, have costs gone up or down? And if costs at some point in the future are higher than they are today, but lower than they would have been extrapolated at current rates of increase from today, have costs gone up or down?

  7. #77
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    The more painful you make it, the more incentive they have to simply not pay it. What's government gonna do if they don't?
    Beat them. I thought I'd made that clear in my prior post.

  8. #78
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    [1] There is no cost containment incentive, hence costs go crazy.

    [2] We're letting health care bankrupt us die to our refusal to restrict it from non-payers.
    1. We need to work on that. I'm no fan of the standard health insurance model, preferring something along the line of catastrophic coverage which ensures that the insured has some skin the game (paying for routine costs and a healthy capped deductible, although I can see incentivizing preventative care).

    2. A civilized society will not tolerate letting the indigent, the illegal, or even the indolent die on the curb. Although it can be frustrating, I think that's a Good Thing.
    Last edited by Karl; 07-17-12 at 06:19 PM.

  9. #79
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Libertarian philosophy is not anarchy. It is that the purpose of the government is to protect our rights. What we see in Somalia is anarchy in which no one has any rights.
    Not necessarily to disagree, but to point out that systems of no rights at all and systems of my rights trump everyone else's righs are extremely difficult to distinguish from each other. And if one concedes that at times the rights of one person take precedence over the rights of another, you have started down a slippery slope.

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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Beacuse the TRUE COSTS could not be hidden by doing that. It does not take thousands of pages of law to say keep what medical care insurance you have, make those without it by it from "pools" or exchanges" and give some more folks medicaid access. This is a scam to make the HUGE costs look little, and to delay the big tax bills until 2014 through 2018. Yes he did!
    Well ranted, but unfortunately not offering any actual connection to the reality of either health care or PPACA.

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