View Poll Results: Would You Rather Have Obamacare or a System of UHC?

Voters
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  • "Obamacare"

    8 14.81%
  • Universal Health Care

    46 85.19%
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Thread: "Obamacare" or UHC?

  1. #211
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba, replying to Excon View Post
    [...] And apparently you missed the vote on the Iraq war, almost every single Republican voted for it while a majority of Democrats voted against it. [...]
    lol The vote i s pretty much what is considered bipartisan. Sorry you don't like that.

    And if you want to be specific. Only those democrats in the house were a majority of nay votes.

    [...]
    A typical exambpe of the right wing interpretation of reality. From the poster's own numbers (both hoises of Congress combined):

    Total Reps voting Yes: 263 No: 7
    Total Dems voting Yes: 110 No: 147
    Total Inds voting Yes: 0 No: 2


    In RightWingWorld, that is a bipartisan vote . . . while the poster proves Catawba's point on the majority of the Dems voting No. Confused? Welcome to the club.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon, replying to Catawba in a somewhat unrelated post View Post
    [....] The real problem here is that you buy into the propaganda [...] and then try to blow it up our collective asses.
    Mirror, mirror, on the wall; who's the smokiest, of them all?

  2. #212
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Your question and premiss is false.

    Those organizations are all biased by what they believe should be.
    And then they pass judgement based on it.
    That would be like judging the US solely on a socialist's/communist's requirement of what a Government should be.
    That would be like judging the US solely on a liberal's/democrat's requirement of what a Government should be.
    That would be like judging the US solely on a conservative's/republican's requirement of what a Government should be.
    It is wrong to do that.
    You may agree with it, but it is still wrong.


    As already pointed out, the WHO organizations criteria was flawed.
    And they Judged this County's HC on it. They were wrong and even admitted it.

    The real problem here is that you buy into the propaganda that they put forth and then try to blow it up our collective asses.

    No where in your post can I find reference to any authoritative world health organizations making the claim that private health care provides better health outcomes for less costs.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #213
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    In the US, we DO NOT get what we pay for. We pay a lot and end up with crappy care. Not much of a bargain, is it.
    Yes we do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    LOL! Health care is not free in any system.
    Way not to take the word in context of what was being said.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    How do you feel about the military protecting you? How about the diplomatic corps representing you? Or the National Weather Service giving you all those free weather reports like that? Better if it were tightly rationed so that only rich people could afford to know what the weather was going to be?
    Wow!
    Totally off point.

  4. #214
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    A typical exambpe of the right wing interpretation of reality. From the poster's own numbers (both hoises of Congress combined):

    Total Reps voting Yes: 263 No: 7
    Total Dems voting Yes: 110 No: 147
    Total Inds voting Yes: 0 No: 2


    In RightWingWorld, that is a bipartisan vote . . . while the poster proves Catawba's point on the majority of the Dems voting No. Confused? Welcome to the club.
    Typical example of someone on the left being unable to formulate an argument against what is pointed out, so ignores it, and then tries to flip the script.
    It had bipartisan support, as evidence from the votes and the co-sponsors. That was the point that the reply tried to spin.


    And way to ignore that the majority of Senate Democrats voted for it.
    Combine their numbers with the house and spin it all you want. The majority of Senate Democrats still voted for it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    Mirror, mirror, on the wall; who's the smokiest, of them all?
    Because of your attempt to spin... it is now you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No where in your post can I find reference to any authoritative world health organizations making the claim that private health care provides better health outcomes for less costs.
    ha, ha, ha!
    lol
    And you are not going to because as you were already told.


    Your question and premiss is false.

    Those organizations are all biased by what they believe should be.


    But you already know that, which is why you are trying to hold it out as if it means something, when it clearly doesn't.
    That is dishonesty in debate.

    Your question had a false premiss. And I pointed out why.

  5. #215
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Not on an individual basis.
    As they say, you get what you pay for.


    Of course you can. If they pay for the care they receive... so what? It is as it should be.
    If instead they are getting free but superior care in a UHC system, whether they are rich or just privileged, it just demonstrates the inherit unfairness in such a system.



    We want not to be forced to pay for someone else's care. That is unfair to an extreme.
    They should provided for themselves.
    And

    if they can't. They don't get it.
    So, anyone who can't afford health care just has to take their chances. Can't afford to have that bypass? OK, natural selection, then.

    and, what we need is the sort of system that the least livable of the third world has.

    I have to admit, from the standpoint of extreme ideology, that does make sense.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  6. #216
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    So, anyone who can't afford health care just has to take their chances. Can't afford to have that bypass? OK, natural selection, then.
    That is nature.

    And if you can afford to purchase the efforts and product of another person, go ahead.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I have to admit, from the standpoint of extreme ideology, that does make sense.
    There is nothing extreme about about it.

    But being forced to pay for another's care is an unnatural extreme.

  7. #217
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Yes we do. Way not to take the word in context of what was being said. Wow! Totally off point.
    Doltish claims and babbling are not a response to anything. The US pays the most and receives the least in terms of health care among developed economies. That is NOT a good deal.

    The literal meaning of "free' is exactly what was meant in the context referenced. Let me refresh your already fading memory...

    If they pay for the care they receive... so what? It is as it should be. If instead they are getting free but superior care in a UHC system, whether they are rich or just privileged, it just demonstrates the inherit unfairness in such a system.

    "Free" is being contrasted with "paying for" something. Your bad.

    The fact that we (including you) routinely share the costs of all sorts of things is obviously germane to some mindless claim that it wouild be "unfair to an extreme" that this should occur in health care (which of course it already does).

  8. #218
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    [COLOR="#442244"]Typical example of someone on the left being unable to formulate an argument against what is pointed out, so ignores it, and then tries to flip the script. It had bipartisan support, as evidence from the votes and the co-sponsors. That was the point that the reply tried to spin. And way to ignore that the majority of Senate Democrats voted for it. Combine their numbers with the house and spin it all you want. The majority of Senate Democrats still voted for it.
    Just a reminder that the October 2002 Senate vote was a formality. Bush had the votes to pass his reolution and everyone knew it beforehand. The last bit of drama (if you want to call it that) was Daschle's visit to the White House to seek wording changes that of course Bush refused.

    The vote itself was meaningless for Democrats. Bush had called for bipartisan support in order to present a united front to the world as he headed off to the UN in hopes of obtaining new resolutions that would assure that Iraq had disarmed. So you could either go along with that, take Bush at his word, allow politics to stop at the water's edge, and vote for the resolution. Or you could say this Bush character is a born liar and has no intention at all of jumping through any of these supposed hoops but is simply going to rush off hellbent and halfcocked in pursuing a stupid, unnecessary, and disastrous war, and vote against the resolution. History has shown us which of those two takes on the matter was the correct one.
    Last edited by Cardinal Fang; 07-22-12 at 01:16 PM.

  9. #219
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Just a reminder that the October 2002 Senate vote was a formality. Bush had the votes to pass his reolution and everyone knew it beforehand. The last bit of drama (if you want to call it that) was Daschle's visit to the White House to seek wording changes that of course Bush refused.

    The vote itself was meaningless for Democrats. Bush had called for bipartisan support in order to present a united front to the world as he headed off to the UN in hopes of obtaining new resolutions that would assure that Iraq had disarmed. So you could either go along with that, take Bush at his word, allow politics to stop at the water's edge, and vote for the resolution. Or you could say this Bush character is a born liar and has no intention at all of jumping through any of these supposed hoops but is simply going to rush off hellbent and halfcocked in pursuing a stupid, unnecessary, and disastrous war, and vote against the resolution. History has shown us which of those two takes on the matter was the correct one.
    And?
    Are we done with the Bush BS now?




    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Doltish claims and babbling are not a response to anything.
    I am very glad you understand that much. Since you do, please stop doing so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    The US pays the most and receives the least in terms of health care among developed economies. That is NOT a good deal.
    A claim based on faulty studies. LOL


    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Of course you can. If they pay for the care they receive... so what? It is as it should be.
    If instead they are getting free but superior care in a UHC system, whether they are rich or just privileged, it just demonstrates the inherit unfairness in such a system.
    LOL! Health care is not free in any system.
    Way not to take the word in context of what was being said.
    The literal meaning of "free' is exactly what was meant in the context referenced. Let me refresh your already fading memory...

    If they pay for the care they receive... so what? It is as it should be. If instead they are getting free but superior care in a UHC system, whether they are rich or just privileged, it just demonstrates the inherit unfairness in such a system.

    "Free" is being contrasted with "paying for" something. Your bad.
    I can't believe this even needs to be addressed.
    Which is exactly why your reply was doltish.
    Let me refresh your memory.

    Do you remember reading the following?
    "We want not to be forced to pay for someone else's care."

    If you do not understand that signifies an understanding what free means, in context, something is wrong with your thinker.
    But instead of recognizing how I used "free", you chose to go with the most basic understanding of it and then make an absurd claim, because you did not consider it in context of what was being said as a whole.

    But let's see just how absurd you reply was.

    If a UHC system exists, all paying in their fair share and such, a person receiving superior care in regards to the rest of the people, that treatment being above and beyond what is normally provided to everybody, is being given to that person "free", or in other words, on the backs of the rest of the payers, which obviously makes it unfair as stated.

    Which makes your claim of "Health care is not free in any system." an absurd reply to what I said.




    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    The fact that we (including you) routinely share the costs of all sorts of things is obviously germane to some mindless claim that it wouild be "unfair to an extreme" that this should occur in health care (which of course it already does).
    lol
    Stop your doltish babble. Again... The context being discussed.
    As in the example; In a UHC nation, a class of people receiving superior care is obviously unfair to an extreme, because they are then receiving better than the rest. That should be commonsense.

    As for sharing costs in general... Some things are needed simply for the running of the Nation, conducting business and protecting the investment.
    UHC is not needed for that.
    Last edited by Excon; 07-22-12 at 03:23 PM.

  10. #220
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    That is nature.

    And if you can afford to purchase the efforts and product of another person, go ahead.



    There is nothing extreme about about it.

    But being forced to pay for another's care is an unnatural extreme.
    Is it?

    Humans naturally have the ability to think and act and collectively carve out a more desirable living condition than what nature provides as a base. And humans have not only survived, but thrived, when they worked together for mutual benefit. What you're suggesting is that we revert back to being simply big dumb animals.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

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