View Poll Results: Would You Rather Have Obamacare or a System of UHC?

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  • "Obamacare"

    8 14.81%
  • Universal Health Care

    46 85.19%
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Thread: "Obamacare" or UHC?

  1. #191
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Of course you will.
    Because you do not care that it was wrong and biased to begin with.
    Your saying that the rest of the industrialized word received superior care, is just proof that you do not know what you are talking about.

    Read what is in red.

    Ill-Conceived Ranking Makes for Unhealthy Debate
    In the Wrangle Over Health Care, a Low Rating for the U.S. System Keeps Emerging Despite Evident Shortcomings in Study

    October 21, 2009
    The trouble is, the ranking is dated and flawed, and has contributed to misconceptions about the quality of the U.S. medical system.

    Among all the numbers bandied about in the health-care debate, this ranking stands out as particularly misleading. It is based on a report released nearly a decade ago by the World Health Organization and relies on statistics that are even older and incomplete.
    [...]
    The objects of his criticism, including Christopher Murray, who oversaw the ranking for the WHO, responded in a letter to the Lancet arguing that WHO "has an obligation to provide the best available evidence in a timely manner to Member States and the scientific community." It also credited the report with achieving its "original intent" of stimulating debate and focus on health systems.

    Prof. Murray, now director of the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington, Seattle, says that "the biggest problem was just data" -- or the lack thereof, in many cases. He says the rankings are now "very old," and acknowledges they contained a lot of uncertainty. His institute is seeking to produce its own rankings in the next three years. The data limitations hampering earlier work "are why groups like ours are so focused on trying to get rankings better."


    A WHO spokesman says the organization has no plans to update the rankings, and adds, "We would not consider it current."

    [...]

    An Ill-Conceived Health-Care Ranking - WSJ.com


    The italicized portion.
    Simply wow.
    [paraphrased] We knew the data was bad, but we really just wanted to stimulate debate. [/paraphrased]


    You reference one report, way back in 2000, that may have had some data errors. All the the health organizations that have compared the world's health care system, year after year, come up with the same conclusion, that UHC provides better health outcomes for lower cost. That is why you don't see countries that have switched to UHC wanting to switch back to private health care systems.

    What fault have you found with all the reports since 2000, like the Commonwealth Fund's report I referenced above?

    What world health organizations can you reference that have studies that show that our private health care system has better outcomes???
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #192
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    lol


    The Commonwealth Fund is hardly a bastion of unbiased honesty.

    Their studies are as flawed as the WHO reports are, for the very same reasons.
    What do you base this on? And where are the world organizations claiming that private health care provides better outcomes???
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #193
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You reference one report, way back in 2000, that may have had some data errors. All the the health organizations that have compared the world's health care system, year after year, come up with the same conclusion, that UHC provides better health outcomes for lower cost. That is why you don't see countries that have switched to UHC wanting to switch back to private health care systems.

    What fault have you found with all the reports since 2000, like the Commonwealth Fund's report I referenced above?

    What world health organizations can you reference that have studies that show that our private health care system has better outcomes???
    I swear. You really are living in denial.
    The internet is replete with examples.


    Commonwealth Ranking: Are We Really 19th Out of 19?

    By Linda Gorman
    July 30, 2008


    If you think that the quality of your health care depends on whether your doctor keeps your medical records on an interoperable computer system or on whether the country has national health insurance – even it if it means that sick people will die while waiting for care – then Why Not the Best? Results from the National Scorecard on U.S. Health System Performance, 2008 from the Commonwealth Fund is the scorecard for you.1

    {Just the Headings of the Paragraphs.}
    Choosing Nonmedical Benchmarks.
    Cherry-Picking the Benchmarks.
    Using Questionable Benchmarks.
    Equating Low Spending with Efficiency.
    Using Questionable Measurements
    Confusing "Access" with "Third-Party Insurance."
    Ignoring Self-Insurance.
    Ignoring Assets.
    Applying the Commonwealth Criteria of "Underinsured" to the Medicare Population
    Ignoring Rationing by Waiting
    Misusing Statistics.
    Where the United States Improved.


    http://healthblog.ncpa.org/commonwea...9th-out-of-19/




    The Agenda

    NRO’s domestic-policy blog, by Reihan Salam.

    The Commonwealth Fund Rags On U.S. Health Care
    By Avik Roy
    June 27, 2010 10:06 A.M.


    One of the disappointing things about healthcare policy research is that its volume is inversely proportional to its quality. Each year, sheaves of research papers are produced by academics and think-tankers, thick with tables and charts, purporting to argue that 62% of all bankruptcies are due to medical expenses, or that 45,000 people a year die because they don’t have health insurance. These studies are then broadcast uncritically by the press, and repeated as gospel by soundbite-seeking politicians. Unfortunately, the methodologies used in such research are often poor, and in the two examples above, intentionally misleading. (Megan McArdle is one of the few writers who has tackled this subject well.)

    Such is the case with a new study published last week by the Commonwealth Fund that argues that, compared to six other developed countries, “the U.S. health care system ranks last or next-to-last” on measurements of its quality, access, efficiency, equity, and “healthy lives.” Overall, the study ranked the Netherlands first, followed by the United Kingdom, Australia, Germany, New Zealand, and Canada, with the U.S. ranking dead last.

    The study is typical of the genre: drawing conclusions that are not warranted by the data; failing to account for alternative (and more plausible) explanations; and using flawed methodologies. The point of view of the authors is clear: in the first paragraph of the report, they write that “newly enacted health reform legislation in the U.S. will start to address these problems by extending coverage.” But they do their cause no favors with such a tendentious report.
    [...]

    The Commonwealth Fund Rags On U.S. Health Care - By Avik Roy - The Agenda - National Review Online



    We can keep going on and on like this, but you have bought into an agenda, and you may even agree with it, but you do not get to blow smoke up our collective asses.
    The agenda you have bought into is harmful.

  4. #194
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What do you base this on? And where are the world organizations claiming that private health care provides better outcomes???
    I think your first question has already been answered.
    Or would you like their mission statement too?

    We do not need any cough world organizations to tell us the obvious.

  5. #195
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    I swear. You really are living in denial.
    The internet is replete with examples.


    Commonwealth Ranking: Are We Really 19th Out of 19?

    By Linda Gorman
    July 30, 2008


    If you think that the quality of your health care depends on whether your doctor keeps your medical records on an interoperable computer system or on whether the country has national health insurance – even it if it means that sick people will die while waiting for care – then Why Not the Best? Results from the National Scorecard on U.S. Health System Performance, 2008 from the Commonwealth Fund is the scorecard for you.1

    {Just the Headings of the Paragraphs.}
    Choosing Nonmedical Benchmarks.
    Cherry-Picking the Benchmarks.
    Using Questionable Benchmarks.
    Equating Low Spending with Efficiency.
    Using Questionable Measurements
    Confusing "Access" with "Third-Party Insurance."
    Ignoring Self-Insurance.
    Ignoring Assets.
    Applying the Commonwealth Criteria of "Underinsured" to the Medicare Population
    Ignoring Rationing by Waiting
    Misusing Statistics.
    Where the United States Improved.


    http://healthblog.ncpa.org/commonwea...9th-out-of-19/




    The Agenda

    NRO’s domestic-policy blog, by Reihan Salam.

    The Commonwealth Fund Rags On U.S. Health Care
    By Avik Roy
    June 27, 2010 10:06 A.M.


    One of the disappointing things about healthcare policy research is that its volume is inversely proportional to its quality. Each year, sheaves of research papers are produced by academics and think-tankers, thick with tables and charts, purporting to argue that 62% of all bankruptcies are due to medical expenses, or that 45,000 people a year die because they don’t have health insurance. These studies are then broadcast uncritically by the press, and repeated as gospel by soundbite-seeking politicians. Unfortunately, the methodologies used in such research are often poor, and in the two examples above, intentionally misleading. (Megan McArdle is one of the few writers who has tackled this subject well.)

    Such is the case with a new study published last week by the Commonwealth Fund that argues that, compared to six other developed countries, “the U.S. health care system ranks last or next-to-last” on measurements of its quality, access, efficiency, equity, and “healthy lives.” Overall, the study ranked the Netherlands first, followed by the United Kingdom, Australia, Germany, New Zealand, and Canada, with the U.S. ranking dead last.

    The study is typical of the genre: drawing conclusions that are not warranted by the data; failing to account for alternative (and more plausible) explanations; and using flawed methodologies. The point of view of the authors is clear: in the first paragraph of the report, they write that “newly enacted health reform legislation in the U.S. will start to address these problems by extending coverage.” But they do their cause no favors with such a tendentious report.
    [...]

    The Commonwealth Fund Rags On U.S. Health Care - By Avik Roy - The Agenda - National Review Online



    We can keep going on and on like this, but you have bought into an agenda, and you may even agree with it, but you do not get to blow smoke up our collective asses.
    The agenda you have bought into is harmful.


    I see, you rely on right wing opinion blogs for your analysis of world health outcomes. That explains your perspective greatly, thanks!
    Last edited by Catawba; 07-21-12 at 05:29 AM.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #196
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I see, you rely on right wing opinion blogs for your analysis of world health outcomes. That explains it!
    Like I said; The internet is replete with examples.

    And who the heck do you think is going to provide the factual information to counter the lefts crap?

    They are explaining The Commonwealth Fund's deceit, with factual information and you want to dismiss it?
    That is typical fashion for a liberal isn't it?
    You really do want to blow smoke up or collective asses in favor of an agenda.
    That is truly a shame.

    The only thing that should matter is if the information is accurate.
    If not, then complain, otherwise you got nothing except an agenda based on falsities and outright deceit.
    Last edited by Excon; 07-21-12 at 05:39 AM.

  7. #197
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Like I said; The internet is replete with examples.

    They are explaining The Commonwealth Fund's deceit, with factual information and you want to dismiss it?
    That is typical fashion for a liberal isn't it?
    You really do want to blow smoke up or collective asses in favor of an agenda.
    That is truly a shame.

    The only thing that should matter is if the information is accurate.
    If not, then complain, otherwise you got nothing except an agenda based on falsities and outright deceit.

    As I have noted, every world health organization has made the same conclusion, year after year.

    Where are the world health organizations claiming private health care systems provides better outcomes for lower costs? You have yet to answer this question, even thought I've asked 3 times now.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  8. #198
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    As I have noted, every world health organization has made the same conclusion, year after year.

    Where are the world health organizations claiming private health care systems provides better outcomes for lower costs? You have yet to answer this question, even thought I've asked 3 times now.
    Your question and premiss is false.

    Those organizations are all biased by what they believe should be.
    And then they pass judgement based on it.
    That would be like judging the US solely on a socialist's/communist's requirement of what a Government should be.
    That would be like judging the US solely on a liberal's/democrat's requirement of what a Government should be.
    That would be like judging the US solely on a conservative's/republican's requirement of what a Government should be.
    It is wrong to do that.
    You may agree with it, but it is still wrong.


    As already pointed out, the WHO organizations criteria was flawed.
    And they Judged this County's HC on it. They were wrong and even admitted it.

    The real problem here is that you buy into the propaganda that they put forth and then try to blow it up our collective asses.
    Last edited by Excon; 07-21-12 at 06:08 AM.

  9. #199
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Interesting discussion.

    The bottom line to all of this is that we can't afford the health care system we have now. We probably won't be able to afford Obomneycare, either

    and, there is no such thing as free care, unlimited care, or free unlimited care. All health care, including ours, is rationed in one way or another.

    The world is full of examples of health care systems that work, cost far less than what we have, and have outcomes at least as good as, if no better than, what we enjoy here.

    So, what is the solution?
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  10. #200
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    The world is full of examples of health care systems that work, cost far less than what we have, and have outcomes at least as good as, if no better than, what we enjoy here.
    I haven't seen one yet that comes even close to being able to provide what one can receive by paying for it individually.
    And by "receive", I am speaking not only about quality, but the actual service performed also.
    Just because others can not afford it, matters not, because they aren't going to receive that level of care under any UHC program unless they have been elected or appointed to a high position in Government.

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