View Poll Results: Would You Rather Have Obamacare or a System of UHC?

Voters
54. You may not vote on this poll
  • "Obamacare"

    8 14.81%
  • Universal Health Care

    46 85.19%
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Thread: "Obamacare" or UHC?

  1. #161
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Oh, you mean they were for the war before they were against the war Democrats? Those Democrats?
    And the War to remove a Despot, was for good reason.
    Especially for security of the region.

    We were Saddam's ally when he was at his murderous worst, so that's not it. Post Persian gulf war Iraq was no longer a military threat to the region, so that's not it.
    And apparently you missed the vote on the Iraq war, almost every single Republican voted for it while a majority of Democrats voted against it.



    How easily people forget. After much hemming and hawing.
    He didn't keep his word as spoken. He lied.
    He withdrew all troops from Iraq by the end of last year vs Romney who said it was too soon to withdraw the troops.


    And of course you see these as a good thing instead of a horrible thing considering the growing hostility in the World.
    Figures!
    We could cut our military spending to 1/6 of what we spend and still be the biggest military spender on the planet.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  2. #162
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Everyone has always had access to health care.
    Nope, just access to emergency care. Compare that to the level of healthcare offered by every other industrialized country on the planet.




    How would it do that?
    Cutting the overhead of private health insurance alone would cut costs as much as 25%, driving a hard bargain with drug firms, pay hospitals the way we do fire departments, and cap health executives’ incomes.

    Note: I will even tell you what I'm doing, to warn you of the trap you're going to walk into. I'm asking you how a single payer plan will reduce health care costs because the only way for it to do so requires squeezing the providers or the patients. What's gonna get squeezed, and to what degree?
    All I care about are the health care results/cost ratio and the rest of the industrialized world with UHC beats our system hands down for a larger percentage of their populations.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #163
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Nope, just access to emergency care.
    Nope, whole hospital care.

    All I care about are the health care results/cost ratio and the rest of the industrialized world with UHC beats our system hands down for a larger percentage of their populations.
    I don't really care about "results" if it's bankrupting the nation. First make sure it's not bankrupting you. It's like worrying about how nice your house is before you worry about whether you can make the mortgage payments.

  4. #164
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    We were Saddam's ally when he was at his murderous worst, so that's not it.
    Spare me.
    When he became a threat to our interests, he was a threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Post Persian gulf war Iraq was no longer a military threat to the region, so that's not it.
    His failure to abide by his own surrender agreement led to his removal from power.
    And your after the fact analysis doesn't count. It was believed that he was a threat at the time. That is all that mattered.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    And apparently you missed the vote on the Iraq war, almost every single Republican voted for it while a majority of Democrats voted against it.
    lol
    The vote is pretty much what is considered bipartisan. Sorry you don't like that.


    And if you want to be specific.
    Only those democrats in the house were a majority of nay votes.




    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    He withdrew all troops from Iraq by the end of last year vs Romney who said it was too soon to withdraw the troops.
    Like I already said:
    How easily people forget. After much hemming and hawing.
    He didn't keep his word as spoken. He lied.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    We could cut our military spending to 1/6 of what we spend and still be the biggest military spender on the planet.
    And in doing that we would not keep our lead that long.
    So it would be an unwise choice.

  5. #165
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Nope, whole hospital care.
    Of all the industrialized countries, why should only America be the only nation to only provide partial health care to its people?



    I don't really care about "results" if it's bankrupting the nation.
    UHC both provides better results and lower costs, as has been documented.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  6. #166
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Spare me.
    When he became a threat to our interests, he was a threat.

    You mean by restricting access to their oil? No other threat to the US has been proven.



    lol
    The vote is pretty much what is considered bipartisan. Sorry you don't like that.
    What was bipartisan about almost every single Republican voting for the war, and a majority of Democrats voting against the war?




    And in doing that we would not keep our lead that long.

    Our lead in what?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  7. #167
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Of all the industrialized countries, why should only America be the only nation to only provide partial health care to its people?
    Because it's too expensive in this country to provide unlimited amounts of it to all its people.

    So ultimately we have a choice:

    1) let people have only what they can afford and watch prices quickly drop to those levels,
    2) cap salaries and watch quality fall, or
    3) entitle people to whatever they need and keep scrounging for money to take from somewhere else to pay for it, and watch costs continue to spiral upward.

    UHC both provides better results and lower costs, as has been documented.
    You've never demonstrated that the UHC caused the lower costs. You've only demonstrated that other countries with a UHC policy HAVE lower costs (which only shows correlation). It so happens that all countries on Earth have lower health care costs. So maybe the trick to lower health care costs is to not be the United States of America.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 07-21-12 at 03:37 AM.

  8. #168
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Because it's too expensive in this country to provide unlimited amounts of it to all its people.
    No one has proposed unlimited health care, only what every other industrialized nation on the planet has.





    You've never demonstrated that the UHC caused the lower costs. You've only demonstrated that other countries with a UHC policy HAVE lower costs (which only shows correlation). It so happens that all countries on Earth have lower health care costs. So maybe the trick to lower health care costs is to not be the United States of America.

    "According to a Harris Poll of all industrial nations, Americans are the least satisfied with their health care.
    An economic overview of America's system is: 42 million people are not covered, the various health care plans place rigid limitations on which doctors and hospitals people can use, cost-saving measures are forcing patients out of hospital beds prematurely, administrative costs are approaching 25% of the health care dollar, managed care is generally structured such that physicians have incentives to cut costs and gain revenue by withholding care, and many Americans live in fear of losing whatever care they have.

    Our current system is based on the power of the insurance industry to stifle any challenges from alternatives. They advocate a competitive environment where they set the rules. These rules give us health care at a very high cost with unusually high profits going to the health care industry and massive salaries going to the associated executives.

    In contrast, the single payer system that Canada has used for the last 25 years has drastically simplified their administration costs. For instance, it takes more people to administer Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts that it does to administer the entire health care system of Canada. Before Canada implemented their national health program, their health costs were the same portion of their economy as in the U.S. After they implemented their program, their costs stabilized at 9% while U.S. costs have increased to 14%. They spend one tenth of what U.S. health care providers spend on overhead."


    Single Payer Health Care System
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #169
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No one has proposed unlimited health care
    Then what are the limits? Are you going to just let people die in the streets?

  10. #170
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You mean by restricting access to their oil? No other threat to the US has been proven.

    Like I already addressed.

    Your after the fact analysis doesn't count.
    It was believed that he was a threat at the time.
    That is all that matters.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    What was bipartisan about almost every single Republican voting for the war, and a majority of Democrats voting against the war?
    It is like you are living in denial.
    The majority of Senate Democrats voted for it.

    The actual numbers of Democrats voting for the legislation as well as co-sponsorship is enough to establish bipartisanship.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Our lead in what?
    I have seen many of your posts. You are not this ignorant.
    It is like you have some bias that overrides any rational thought on our Military power lead and where much of that comes from.
    We cut back spending, we will be cutting back funding of projects. We will see a brain drain.

    We cut back our Military lead will eventually start seeing more belligerence and actual hostilities towards us.
    It's like you want to hinder our country, in favor of what you want to be progressive, such as UHC/Obamacare.

    For the sake of our Country and it's people we need to be more concerned with maintaining any lead we have and developing others, instead of supporting those individuals who can not support themselves. Because that leads nowhere fast.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Of all the industrialized countries, why should only America be the only nation to only provide partial health care to its people?
    Really?
    That is what you got? Crying because we don't have what harms other nations?
    **** that makes people suffer more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    UHC both provides better results and lower costs, as has been documented.
    No it doesn't.
    The only better results are for those who never provided for themselves.

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