View Poll Results: Would You Rather Have Obamacare or a System of UHC?

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  • "Obamacare"

    8 14.81%
  • Universal Health Care

    46 85.19%
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Thread: "Obamacare" or UHC?

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    It will be less than we were paying before for increased hospital costs since more people will have health insurance.
    You really need to start taking notes. Having insurance doesn't decrease health care utilization (if anything it increases it) and it doesn't suppress costs of the care, individually or overall. There is no mathematical way that expanding access decreases unit costs of medical care nor expenditures on medical care overall/per capita.

    The only way to address the underlying cost will be to upgrade to UHC as the rest of the industrialized world has done. But this is America, and we are only capable of baby steps, apparently.
    Broken record player. We have said the same things back to one another for months. More care guaranteed to more people does not mean cheaper care individually or overall.

    That is how you see it from the far right. I see it as upholding the intent of the Constitution to promote the welfare of we the people.
    1) SCOTUS disagrees with that as the basis.
    2) Policies that make us poorer and make corporations which you argue were gouging us to begin with and erich add to our already exploding debt are directly contrary to the general welfare of the US.

    Our medical care is almost twice as expensive as every other industrialized country
    That's THE problem that PPACA makes worse.

    That together with health care being the leading cause of bankruptcy in this country, will leave us no alternative but to eventually upgrade to UHC.
    UHC isn't an upgrade. It just consolidates revenue collection and reimbursements. What it still leaves undone is price capping and rationing. Someone has to do that, and politicians won't because we'll destroy them if they do, so we will fail to contain costs until the debt it creates destroys us.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 07-18-12 at 10:04 PM.

  2. #132
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    You really need to start taking notes. Having insurance doesn't decrease health care utilization (if anything it increases it) and it doesn't suppress costs of the care, individually or overall. There is no mathematical way that expanding access decreases unit costs of medical care nor expenditures on medical care overall/per capita.

    Before health care reform we were paying increased hospital costs to cover the 50 million without insurance. With the reform we will be paying for the health care for only a fraction of that number because more will have health insurance. That was the conservatives idea when they created the insurance mandate. If you don't like it, tell them you would prefer UHC.


    1) SCOTUS disagrees with that as the basis.
    They have agree with that as the basis for Medicare and Medicaid for decades under both parties. Let's just extend Medicare to everyone if that makes you feel better.



    2) Policies that make us poorer and make corporations which you argue were gouging us to begin with and erich add to our already exploding debt are directly contrary to the general welfare of the US.
    You have not proven your premise this will cost us more money over the long term.






    That's THE problem that PPACA makes worse.
    So you would prefer an upgrade to UHC, over the conservatives insurance mandate?



    UHC isn't an upgrade.
    It provides better health care to more people at half the costs. I call that an upgrade.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #133
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    He's being sarcastic. At least I think he is.
    I'm glad someone picked up on that. I didn't think it was particularly subtle, but maybe it was.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  4. #134
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    He's being sarcastic. At least I think he is.
    You can never tell these days. Its a bit of a mystery.


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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lokiate View Post
    With how screwed up the medical system is already, neither. Everything the government touches turns to **** shortly after.
    Like our armed forces. The weakest in the world. Right?

  6. #136
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Like our armed forces. The weakest in the world. Right?
    More like Wall Street.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

  7. #137
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I'm going to have to see how the AHA works before I'll know.

    Personally, I don't understand why the government didn't simply envelope everyone into Medicare and call it a day.
    Cuz the Democrats were too busy compromising w the Republicans. The Republicans would have gone ape-**** over such a move. But, since they did anyway, you are right, they should have ignored Romneycare and just gone for the true Obamacare.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

  8. #138
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Cuz the Democrats were too busy compromising w the Republicans. The Republicans would have gone ape-**** over such a move. But, since they did anyway, you are right, they should have ignored Romneycare and just gone for the true Obamacare.
    Exactly! The reason the conservatives created the insurance mandate in 1989 was that it was the only alternative they could come up with to UHC.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  9. #139
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Before health care reform we were paying increased hospital costs to cover the 50 million without insurance. With the reform we will be paying for the health care for only a fraction of that number because more will have health insurance. That was the conservatives idea when they created the insurance mandate. If you don't like it, tell them you would prefer UHC.
    Few of the 50 million without insurance incur huge hospital bills. No one is admitted to a hospital who does not have any need for hospital care. More people with insurance changes very little about people's aggregate need for medical care, and what it does change does not simply make the previous hospital costs vanish "because they have insurance." You are failing to grasp the basic financial mechanism of insurance and health care. Insurance is not some magical ticket that makes health care not cost anything.

    They have agree with that as the basis for Medicare and Medicaid for decades under both parties. Let's just extend Medicare to everyone if that makes you feel better.
    Medicare is the most fiscally destructive policy in the history of our nation. Yeah let's expand it.

    You have not proven your premise this will cost us more money over the long term.
    It doesn't cap health industry salaries, reimbursement rates for services/procedures/tests, or premiums that insurance companies can charge us now that our service to them is federally mandated. If you can't figure out on your own how that accelerates continued cost expansion, then what could I possible say to prove it to you?

    So you would prefer an upgrade to UHC, over the conservatives insurance mandate?
    Post #7.

    It provides better health care to more people at half the costs. I call that an upgrade.
    You can't demonstrate this whatsoever. To try, you would only point to other countries whose health care has always cost half what ours has. You repeatedly blindly assume that if a country has both UHC and lower health care costs, that it was the implementation of the UHC that caused those costs to be lower. Correlation is not causation.

  10. #140
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Few of the 50 million without insurance incur huge hospital bills. No one is admitted to a hospital who does not have any need for hospital care. More people with insurance changes very little about people's aggregate need for medical care, and what it does change does not simply make the previous hospital costs vanish "because they have insurance." You are failing to grasp the basic financial mechanism of insurance and health care. Insurance is not some magical ticket that makes health care not cost anything.

    Health reform coverage cost falls slightly

    "On Tuesday, the Congressional Budget Office released new estimates on the cost of subsidizing insurance coverage for millions of Americans.

    The bottom line: The government's overall tab is expected to fall slightly over a decade. It is now projected to spend $1.083 trillion between 2012 and 2021. Last year, CBO's estimate was $1.131 trillion.

    A key goal of the Affordable Care Act, passed in 2010, is to guarantee coverage for everyone regardless of health status and create affordable insurance options for low- and middle-income Americans.

    What health reform is (and isn't) doing now

    To achieve that end, the law expands eligibility rules for Medicaid and subsidizes the cost of health insurance for low- and middle-income families buying policies on newly created insurance exchanges, which will open in 2014.

    The CBO now expects more people to be eligible for Medicaid and the Children's Health Insurance Program, increasing the government's costs by $168 billion compared to last year's estimates. The reason: higher unemployment projections and lower income expectations.

    At the same time, that increased outlay is offset by a reduction in projected costs for various tax credits and the government's share of premiums.
    It is also offset by higher-than-expected taxable compensation and penalties, both of which will add to government revenue."


    Medicare is the most fiscally destructive policy in the history of our nation.
    Only from the perspective of those on the far right.


    It doesn't cap health industry salaries, reimbursement rates for services/procedures/tests, or premiums that insurance companies can charge us now that our service to them is federally mandated. If you can't figure out on your own how that accelerates continued cost expansion, then what could I possible say to prove it to you?
    From the CBO study referenced above:"the law expands eligibility rules for Medicaid and subsidizes the cost of health insurance for low- and middle-income families buying policies on newly created insurance exchanges, which will open in 2014."

    "The CBO now expects more people to be eligible for Medicaid and the Children's Health Insurance Program, increasing the government's costs by $168 billion compared to last year's estimates. The reason: higher unemployment projections and lower income expectations.

    At the same time, that increased outlay is offset by a reduction in projected costs for various tax credits and the government's share of premiums.

    It is also offset by higher-than-expected taxable compensation and penalties, both of which will add to government revenue."



    You can't demonstrate this whatsoever. To try, you would only point to other countries whose health care has always cost half what ours has. You repeatedly blindly assume that if a country has both UHC and lower health care costs, that it was the implementation of the UHC that caused those costs to be lower. Correlation is not causation.
    " According to the World Health Organization (WHO), the United States spent more on health care per capita ($7,146), and more on health care as percentage of its GDP (15.2%), than any other nation in 2008.[3] The United States had the fourth highest level of government health care spending per capita ($3,426), behind three countries with higher levels of GDP per capita: Monaco, Luxembourg, and Norway.[3] A 2001 study in five states found that medical debt contributed to 46.2% of all personal bankruptcies and in 2007, 62.1% of filers for bankruptcies claimed high medical expenses.[4] Since then, health costs and the numbers of uninsured and underinsured have increased."

    Health care in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    U.S. Ranks Last Among Seven Countries on Health System Performance Based on Measures of Quality, Efficiency, Access, Equity, and Healthy Lives

    "Affordable Care Act Holds Promise for U.S. Performance; Focus on Information Technology and Primary Care Vital To Achieving High Performance"

    U.S. Ranks Last Among Seven Countries on Health System Performance Based on Measures of Quality, Efficiency, Access, Equity, and Healthy Lives - The Commonwealth Fund
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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