View Poll Results: Would You Rather Have Obamacare or a System of UHC?

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  • "Obamacare"

    8 14.81%
  • Universal Health Care

    46 85.19%
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Thread: "Obamacare" or UHC?

  1. #101
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I recently signed a will and advanced directives. I had an option to select "keep me alive indefinitely" in case of unconsciousness an questionable/doubtful chance of full recovery. Not even death can scare me into thinking its financially sustainable to give people that option. But that's only one little example of waste in our free-for-all health care system. No one gets a tough answer, thus expenditures have no ceiling. "Affordable Care" my ***. Straight up doublespeak.
    The actual issue is over how to replace what is already the most expensive and at least one of the most dysfunctional health care systems in the developed world with something that might serve us all a little better. Appropriate end-of-life planning and care are of course a part of that, and clearly there should be no issue over doctors being compensated under insurance plans for the time they spend counseling patients on such matters. Final care itself is something that can't be foreseen and certainly can't be legislated. Doctors, patients, and their families make those calls. Be sure your own wishes have been made crystal clear so that emotions do not come to undo what you believe to be done.

  2. #102
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    So for the record, you are strongly against the insurance mandate?
    No, its better than what we had, but is just a baby step towards UHC which we will eventually have to upgrade to as the rest of the industrialized world has done.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

  3. #103
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No, its better than what we had,
    So the mandate, which you call a conservative idea, is something that both you and President Obama supported. Fair enough.

    But... no, it isn't better than what we had. No law that forces us to keep forking it over to a private corporation as a response to feeling ripped off by said corporation is... a retarded idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal Fang View Post
    The actual issue is over how to replace what is already the most expensive and at least one of the most dysfunctional health care systems in the developed world with something that might serve us all a little better.
    There is no way for it to serve us better until the costs of care are cheaper. Do you agree the "Affordable CARE Act" is an intentional misnomer/deception? If not, explain what forces the costs of care cheaper under PPACA. It doesn't look like anyone has been able to do that.

    Appropriate end-of-life planning and care are of course a part of that, and clearly there should be no issue over doctors being compensated under insurance plans for the time they spend counseling patients on such matters. Final care itself is something that can't be foreseen and certainly can't be legislated. Doctors, patients, and their families make those calls.
    None of whom have any financial stake in the decision though, at that point, right? Couldn't a stubborn patient demand more and more life-saving hail marys at the expense of the collective? Or is that something that we shouldn't allow? It's really just one example of health care we probably should NOT be covering.

  4. #104
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    I was blowing you off to prevent derailing the thread. You'd already got your return shot in. I'll gladly debate libertarianism in another thread; in this one, I'm done.
    Then stop instigating the derailment.
    Don't start something, you don't want to finish.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  5. #105
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Wish there was a third option, but UHC is farther from having a choice than Obamacare. I could be wrong though. Obamacare is a tax, and UHC is a system. I will take the tax over another government run agency.
    We went from sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me to safe spaces.

  6. #106
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    There is no way for it to serve us better until the costs of care are cheaper.
    I'm not sure if you have an objective here other than breast-beating and Obama-bashing, but a few seconds of thought would have revealed that there are many potential ways in which we could be better served that don't involve costs at all. And when it comes to discussing costs, you need to define your terms. What qualifies as "cheaper"? I raised this point earlier while not expecting to see a reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Do you agree the "Affordable CARE Act" is an intentional misnomer/deception?
    As compared to what, the USA-PATRIOT Act? Do you agree that what is most important about a bill is its provisions rather than its title, and that it is silly to focus on what is actually trivial?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    If not, explain what forces the costs of care cheaper under PPACA. It doesn't look like anyone has been able to do that.
    I noted several earlier, but are you aware of the 50% discount on brand-name drugs that manufacturers must provide under PPACA to seniors with Medicare Part-D coverage who are affected by the doughnut-hole? I'm reasonably sure that ths will be dismissed for any of a number of rhetorical reasons, so what about the required rebates of premiums to consumers in years when any less than 85% of them is spent for actual health care services? Anticipating that this will be found not to count either, how about the standardization of various paperwork activities related to plan enrollment and claims processing? You know, in France it would not be at all uncommon to walk into a doctor's office (easier to do there since they have more of them per capita than we do) and find no one working there who was not a degreed or certified medical professional. Their claims system is so simple that paper-pushing admin assistants are simply not required under most circumstances. I know...job killer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    None of whom have any financial stake in the decision though, at that point, right?
    In your world, I'm sure quite a lot of people would insist on extended care simply because they didn't want to shell out for funeral costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Couldn't a stubborn patient demand more and more life-saving hail marys at the expense of the collective? Or is that something that we shouldn't allow? It's really just one example of health care we probably should NOT be covering.
    Death panels bad, death panels good. PPACA critics can't seem to make up their minds. And as long as there is an outlier out there to argue from, we can count on its being raised no matter how uncommon it might become. By the way, what would your take be on assisted suicide being covered by insurance?

  7. #107
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_State View Post
    Wish there was a third option, but UHC is farther from having a choice than Obamacare. I could be wrong though. Obamacare is a tax, and UHC is a system. I will take the tax over another government run agency.
    PPACA is legislation that establishes and modifies various taxes as part of at last controlling the health care financing system. UHC is a health care financing system that is based on taxes.

  8. #108
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Yeah, the world has that - they call it "Hong Kong".
    And most of the third world to varying degrees.

    Also Hong Kong IS the libertarian paradise if ...

    A: The government ownes ALL the land and rents it in a libertarian paradise, keeping the land artificially high so as to keep taxes low
    B: You have a lot of social welfare including a public healthcare system
    C: Runs almost entirely on foreign finance and investment
    D: Relies hugely on foreign educated labor
    E: Is 100% dependant on foreign corporations which use it as a tax haven while recieving support from other governments and demand from outside.
    F: Oh and a nationalized stock exchange.
    Last edited by RGacky3; 07-18-12 at 09:04 AM.

  9. #109
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    No, its better than what we had, but is just a baby step towards UHC which we will eventually have to upgrade to as the rest of the industrialized world has done.
    Will we? I've been expecting it for years. Back when the cost of health insurance went up 30-40% a year, I thought, oh, well, we'll soon join the civilized world. When Hillary Clinton spearheaded the effort back in the '90s, I thought it was only a matter of time.

    Now, with health care consuming 17% of the GDP while other nations spend half that, give or take, and have better results, we're still committed to keeping what we have in the name of ideology and fear of "socialism".
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  10. #110
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    Re: "Obamacare" or UHC?

    At least by the lay of the land as it is known today, there is no functional alternative to a single-payer UHC system of some sort. There are at least a dozen different varieties of that functioning in the world today, and we will ultimately develop a new one of our own. The tricky questions however have nothing to do with that, but rather with the means and path by which we try to get there from the god-awful here. Caveman and meta-axe technology will fail in this arena. Our long-term success depends on being both honest and clever. It seems though that there are rather limited numbers who can manage that. Perhaps we should try harder.

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