View Poll Results: Are Social Security and Medicare Constitutional?

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  • Medicare ONLY Is Constitutional

    0 0%
  • Social Security ONLY is Constitutional

    0 0%
  • BOTH Medicare and Social Security are Constitutional

    13 52.00%
  • NEITHER are Constitutional

    12 48.00%
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Thread: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

  1. #21
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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    no mention of an Airforce there huh?

    looks like we'll have to scrap the whole thing.
    This is why originalists are almost always wrong. The Constitution is not a shackle meant to keep us in 1787.

    Where in the Constitution is the power given to the President to purchase land, or to go to war to acquire it? Yeah, you just invalidated everything West of the Mississippi river and Florida.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  2. #22
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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    This is why originalists are almost always wrong. The Constitution is not a shackle meant to keep us in 1787.

    Where in the Constitution is the power given to the President to purchase land, or to go to war to acquire it? Yeah, you just invalidated everything West of the Mississippi river and Florida.
    GREAT POINT!!

    where did Congress get the power for the Louisiana Purchase and Seward's Folly?

    it sure ain't in the USC. Looks like we have to give it all back.

  3. #23
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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    This is why originalists are almost always wrong. The Constitution is not a shackle meant to keep us in 1787.
    Where in the Constitution is the power given to the President to purchase land, or to go to war to acquire it? Yeah, you just invalidated everything West of the Mississippi river and Florida.
    It was meant as a shackle to limit federal power.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  4. #24
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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    This is why originalists are almost always wrong. The Constitution is not a shackle meant to keep us in 1787.

    Where in the Constitution is the power given to the President to purchase land, or to go to war to acquire it? Yeah, you just invalidated everything West of the Mississippi river and Florida.
    I already pointed out how silly the Air Force comment was. The Constitution is what it says it is. Indeed it is not meant to shackle us, we the people, but it IS meant to shackle the federal government. Statements like yours, are simply dishonest or uninformed.

    There is no power in the Constitution for the President to purchase land. There should have been an amendment to the Constitution, and probably would have been, for something of that importance and necessity.

    So while you may want to disregard the truth of the Constitution because it suits you, it won't make you correct.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

  5. #25
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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Libertarians remind me of Creationists. They love to take the literary word and accept no substitutes as if they are all constitutional scholars and know more than anyone else on the subject. Know it all political banter.

    They also seem to have a direct relationship with every founding father and know exactly what each one was thinking at the time.
    Last edited by OnWisconsin; 07-12-12 at 06:56 PM.
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    and then exacting from the contributors--to whom a little means so much--a double share to guard the treasure!
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  6. #26
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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnWisconsin View Post
    Libertarians remind me of Creationists. They love to take the literary word and accept no substitutes as if they are all constitutional scholars and know more than anyone else on the subject. Know it all political banter.
    That is because substitutes change the meaning.

    Without meaning, words and documents that are supposed to be binding are useless.
    "I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." -Thomas Sowell

  7. #27
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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    This is why originalists are almost always wrong. The Constitution is not a shackle meant to keep us in 1787.

    Where in the Constitution is the power given to the President to purchase land, or to go to war to acquire it? Yeah, you just invalidated everything West of the Mississippi river and Florida.
    No offense Rocket but this is kind of a generalization. Originalists do understand that situations and times change, as well we understand that things do come about which require changes to the social contract, but there still have to be limitations and burdens of proof upon the government. A politician must still follow the spirit of constitutional law and make their cases to the public via a vote, for things that MUST be changed there is a necessary and proper standard, i.e., the law must be proved necessary and with the proper authority to do so. The shackle isn't on the times past, but the government future and present.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

  8. #28
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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnWisconsin View Post
    Libertarians remind me of Creationists. They love to take the literary word and accept no substitutes as if they are all constitutional scholars and know more than anyone else on the subject. Know it all political banter.

    They also seem to have a direct relationship with every founding father and know exactly what each one was thinking at the time.
    You need not be a scholar to understand the meanings of words.

    Our founding documents were written by individuals who were tired of a tyrannical government, with the specific intent of preventing the same in their new country. They were, for the most part, *classical liberals* of their time, having come out of the age of enlightenment, and they valued individual liberty above essentially all else. They were, unfortunately for us, lacking in foresight in not being more specific and , and did not seem to understand that many people do not value liberty. They want a security blanket instead.
    "God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my path violently and recklessly, all things which alter my plans and intentions, and change the course of my life, for better or for worse."
    -C G Jung

  9. #29
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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfoot 88 View Post
    I already pointed out how silly the Air Force comment was. The Constitution is what it says it is. Indeed it is not meant to shackle us, we the people, but it IS meant to shackle the federal government. Statements like yours, are simply dishonest or uninformed.

    There is no power in the Constitution for the President to purchase land. There should have been an amendment to the Constitution, and probably would have been, for something of that importance and necessity.

    So while you may want to disregard the truth of the Constitution because it suits you, it won't make you correct.
    I am no scholar but, perhaps, a treaty was involved, and its terms and conditions allowed the purchase of land as part of it.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #30
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    Re: Are Medicare and Social Security Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Medicare only has two government parts, parts A and B. Part A comes straight from payroll taxes and no further effort need be applied but it pays almost nothing, B is a slightly expanded optional fee which is limited in scope but still pays more than A. All other parts are individual policies approved by CMS to be sold by private companies which must comply with all regulations issued by that board, it's not complicated if you take them one at a time and read into the details. What happens is that medicare pays it's portion of the bill and the other optional parts supplement the rest up to obligations.

    Again though, under tax powers.....I'm thinking you are of the same opinion it has to be based upon a loose interpretation of the 16th amendment but is possible to justify with that.
    First, thank you for explaining at least parts of medicare and the thoughtful reply. IMHO, SS/Medicare are far more direct and single purpose than 85% of the 80K+ pages of the IRS code. The 16th amendment allowed the federal gov't to tax the INCOME of the citizens, from all sources yet, says NOTHING about basing that taxation upon how that private income was LATER spent or how many citizens that it may (or may not) support. SS/Medicare are simple, flat and direct taxation systems, from the first dollar of wage income to the current cap (that should be removed). The mass of credits, deductions, exceptions and exclusions are mind boggling, to say the least, for the balance of the FIT mess. I am sure that, by now, we have spent FAR more time money and effort, as a nation, keeping records and filling out federal income tax forms, than we expended to get a man on the moon and to build the entire interstate highway system. ;-)
    Last edited by ttwtt78640; 07-12-12 at 07:30 PM.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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